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Political speech is anything related to normative discussion of public or social policy especially as it relates to government action. Simple.
by digitaltrees 5y ago
Political speech is anything related to normative discussion of public or social policy especially as it relates to government action. Simple.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jakelazaroff 5y agoOkay, so let’s tweak the example a bit so it involves literal speech. Say an employee asks a coworker to refer to them with a specific set of pronouns, and the coworker refuses. Who is bringing politics into the workplace? People are upset about the policy because it gives cover to treat people’s identities (such as using they/them pronouns) as forbidden political speech.
- ratww 5y agoNobody is bringing politics to the workplace. But the person refusing to use the pronouns is kind of being an asshole? I mean, it's a workplace, not a school. You don't get to choose how you call other people, period. Other people's pronouns and names don't really matter to your day to day job, just call them whatever they want and go on with your life.
- jakelazaroff 5y agoThe response would be something like "I come here to work, not have their lifestyle shoved down my throat". You do see how a blanket "no politics" rule creates space for HR to turn to the other employee and say "look, you two are not gonna solve this at work so just leave the pronoun stuff at home", right?
- ratww 5y agoNo I don't. Someone saying that name/pronoun choice is "shoving a lifestyle down their throats" is not being reasonable and is being an unreasonable asshole on purpose just to make a point. At this point you tell this person to shut the fuck up or get the fuck out. Telling someone how you should be called is not unreasonable. You're still allowed to roll eyes in your head, but calling them anything else is behaving like a petulant schoolchildren. There's no place for that in a professional environment. Just accept and move on with your life.
- jakelazaroff 5y agoI agree with you, but you have to realize that you’re describing a sociopolitical stance that is far from universal. See for example this comment elsewhere in the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27002001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27002001 Imagine that a coworker keeps misgendering you, and that commenter is your manager. Your workplace has a “no politics” rule. Who do you think will be told to stop being “political”?
- ratww 5y agoSure, but if a workplace is unreasonable then all bets are off... I don't think any kind of political discussion is going to have any effect in a workplace that accepts a manager purposefully misgendering a co-worker. I also don't think that someone politicising something makes the "other side" political automatically. If Basecamp hired a retrograde sexist that called unmarried women "whores" in the hallway, the women would have all the right to complain, and it wouldn't be a political discussion. It would be just be (in a perfect world) HR vs Asshole. EDIT: Also I'd like to say that I'm not condoning banning politics at work. We probably agree on most things. I'm just saying that co-workers, managers and the company being reasonable makes way more difference than politics/no politics. Unfortunately there's no perfect solution to the problem of people being unreasonable, other than those sociopaths ceasing to exist.
- jakelazaroff 5y agoI think it's too reductive to say "if a workplace is unreasonable", as if it's a binary condition. At any workplace, there are going to be all sorts of people, with all sorts of opinions, many of which may not become apparent until the issue is forced. Some of those people will be in charge of others. So it's entirely plausible to have an office full of mostly-reasonable people and still find a manager who asks their report to relax about being misgendered. The retrograde sexist thing sounds obvious because public opinion there is so one-sided. But that's not true for all issues. It was legal to fire employees simply for being gay or trans less than a year ago. I think we're mostly on the same page here. I agree that ultimately, assholes will find a way to be assholes regardless of the policies in place. But we should still be wary of policies that give them cover to do so.
- digitaltrees 5y agoIt’s not political to say as a general principle we support the customs of other cultures even if we don’t agree”. If I go to China I don’t tell them their names are in the wrong order because their family name comes first and given name comes second, I act according to custom and respect. If a Chinese person visits me in the US same principle. Why not treat all coworkers the same.
- lupire 5y agoI don't understand why you say school is different.
- ratww 5y agoYou're absolutely right. Just because disrespect to other children tends to be tolerated in schools, it doesn't mean it should be.
- rswail 5y agoSchool is different because the participants, by definition are not yet mature adults. The solution in that case is education. In the workplace, respect for others is an expected part of the role of each person. If a person asks to be identified by a particular name, or by the use of particular pronouns, then no other person in that workplace has the right to argue that they can't/won't because of their personal beliefs.
- digitaltrees 5y agoThat is clearly an interpersonal conflict that can be resolved through standard dispute resolution process in an apolitical fashion. If a common ground of mutual respect and civility can’t be achieved then the disputing employees can be transferred to different teams.
- jakelazaroff 5y agoHow can it be resolved in an apolitical fashion? It is by definition a political dispute. Again, the point is that banning "politics" creates space for the company to say "leave the pronouns at home; engage in social issues on your own time".
- digitaltrees 5y agoApolitical is 1. Mutual respect, 2. Transfer disputing employees to different teams so they are not in continuous dispute.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago1 is not apolitical; it essentially means the misgendering employee needs to acquiesce. 2 is frankly a terrible solution. You're keeping a "missing stair" employee whom you need to carefully ensure doesn't interact with any coworkers they'd misgender. If someone can't respect a coworker, especially after being directly told to, they should be let go.
- digitaltrees 5y agoMutual respect means one person makes a good faith to respect the preferences and culture of another person. And the other person it patient and forgiving of mistakes and assumes good faith from the counter party. Some cultures have different salutations based on age. Even though the US doesn’t make that distinction it is respectful to adopt it. It isn’t necessary to fire every employee because a dispute is intractable. If an employee makes a good faith effort to adapt but makes innocent mistakes that are very poorly received they may not be at fault.
- stretchwithme 5y agoI'd say the person trying to dictate the speech of other people, especially when that speech conforms to physical reality more than the alternative. And especially when people seek power over others by trying to control speech. I don't believe that there's anything wrong with ASKING to be referred to in a specific way. Or in voluntarily complying. I would try to comply, out of courtesy. But it's certainly political to try and FORCE compliance. People may have many reasons for not complying and they don't have to justify their beliefs to all comers. If you want to use female pronouns to refer to me, go for it. It's not a violation of my rights in any way. I don't need everybody to agree with how I see myself. I'm pretty sure most don't. At the same time, I realize how much of a pain it is to constantly be dealing with this issue. I just think freedom is more important. Rights are more important than wants. As are the rights of a company that wants to enforce the use of pronouns. They can choose this brand of politics. And it clearly IS a political issue.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago> I'd say the person trying to dictate the speech of other people, especially when that speech conforms to physical reality more than the alternative. Anyone wondering "how can a ban on politics be used to hurt marginalized people?", here is your Exhibit A.
- stretchwithme 5y agoIf the rights of others hurts someone's feelings, maybe they need to learn some acceptance.
- jakelazaroff 5y agoI don’t see why people’s feelings are hurt when their significant others cheat on them. It’s their partners' right to do so, after all. Maybe they need to learn some acceptance.
- stretchwithme 5y ago
- Aeolun 5y agoI dunno, if you get upset about being referred to with your legal gender maybe you are the one with a problem instead? I find it hard to emphathise with someone making a big deal out of that. I can sort of see how you’d like to be called differently if you are changing your gender, but at the same time I cannot really blame the person calling a boy a boy. I’d try to, but probably find it exhausting to try and keep track of how people want to be called.
- pseudalopex 5y agoWhy do you assume the gender they tell people isn't their legal gender? Some jurisdictions allow changing it. Do you keep track of people's names? Their partners' names? Their jobs? Did you ever think someone was a different gender when you first saw them? What did you do after you realized?
- Aeolun 5y ago> Why do you assume the gender they tell people isn't their legal gender? Some jurisdictions allow changing it. I don’t. But generally, by the time someone is legally allowed to change their gender it’ll be fairly hard to call them anything else, so most of the issues come from the transitional phase. > Do you keep track of people's names? Their partners' names? Their jobs? Fair point, though the answer is somewhere in between. I suck at remembering names too :) I don’t think I’ve ever had to deal with it, which is probably part of the reason I find it hard to imagine.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago> But generally, by the time someone is legally allowed to change their gender it’ll be fairly hard to call them anything else, so most of the issues come from the transitional phase. For what it’s worth, literally everyone I’ve ever met that requests specific pronouns is fine with occasional slip-ups as long as you make a good faith effort to get it right.
- pseudalopex 5y agoSome places have no prerequisites for changing legal gender. Some places don't allow it at all. Trans people can look androgynous just like cis people. And non binary people can look male or female.