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Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

ggm 5y ago
Is there a case for RE legalising heroin: my aunt was one of a small number of GPs in London licenced to prescribe heroin to addicts in the sixties and seventies as part of a treatment programme.
- rakhodorkovsky 5y ago
  Switzerland has had programs giving methadone and heroin to addicts for more than 20 years now. They've been a success; heroin use has plummeted since it's peak in the 90s. One reason for the success is that giving out free product kills the local market; many users finance their use by selling to and actively recruiting new users.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Or just straight up property crime. Breaking a window to steal $3 in change. Not sure why/how the property insurance industry hasn’t lobbied government for this yet.
    - nickik 5y ago
      My great ant and uncle who were wealthy and lived in Zürich would put 300Fr in cash by the entrance area of their house. The idea being that if a junkie would break in, they would just take that money and leave. Before the legalization a common stereotype would by junkies breaking into places stealing a few things or destroying things while searching for valuables. Not sure if this is true or a sensible defense mechanism. However it shows something about the attitude during that time.
mythrwy 5y ago
Several cases most likely. If they could make it actually go away by banning it those cases become much weaker, but so far that hasn't worked out.
seibelj 5y ago
The only arguments against legalizing heroin are paternalistic - not trusting people to be responsible. In a bygone era I was prescribed Percocet for a dental procedure, which I have been told is an extremely strong opioid, and I did not like the numb feeling and eventually threw them away. So I have 100% proof that not everyone who takes opioids gets addicted and winds up in the gutter. The absolute truth is that drug use is a victimless crime and banning it doesn’t make it go away. I would argue the death of legendary actor Philip Seymour Hoffman was a direct result of this - he purchased heroin off the black market, was an experienced heroin user, but the potency of the drug is unpredictable and he accidentally overdosed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Seymour_Hoffman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Seymour_Hoffman America is finally legalizing marijuana and soon magic mushrooms. I would argue LSD and MDMA are not far behind. Why stop there? Cocaine and heroin are not the devil incarnate - I don’t see why we continually move the goal posts for “good” drugs but say others are beyond the pale. I don’t care what your anecdata says as an “experienced” drug user - I have had several friends become marijuana burnouts who still work shit jobs, if you want to argue heroin is simply too dangerous for society then alcohol and weed should get the ban as well. The push for individual rights continues. I guarantee you within 10 years prostitution will be fully legalized in progressive coastal states. I don’t see why we can’t accept vice as a natural human past time (people like pleasure) and try to manage the down-sides of legalization the same way we do with all other legalized vice like gambling (state lotteries(!)) and alcohol. Better this than a bunch of criminals providing it anyway.
- solipsism 5y ago
  drug use is a victimless crime That's not remotely true. Use of certain drugs (such as heroin) leads to horrible expectations for children of addicts. These children can only be thought of as victims of heroin use. Now I'm not saying that should be used to curtail the freedom of non-parents. But the experience of children shouldn't be ignored either. And I'm the first person who will agree that alcohol abuse in the home leads to horrible expectations for children as well. try to manage the down-sides of legalization the same way we do with all other legalized vice like gambling (state lotteries(!)) and alcohol Well, we don't do a good job of this. Alcohol has a devastating effect on lives (but of course not all lives, save your down votes recreational drinkers)
alpineidyll3 5y ago
Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.
- grphtrdr 5y ago
  I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.
  - ianai 5y ago
    Agreed. Want to make serious strides on illegal immigration to the US? Remove the funding of the cartels.
    - randompwd 5y ago
      ...or force them to quadruple down on alternative income streams such as human smuggling instead of drug smuggling.
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        Are the cartels facing a labour shortage or something and sticking to their core competency and opting-out of other industries?
  - Gravey 5y ago
    Could you explain how decriminalization helps to defund the cartels? With legalization comes regulation and better control over the supply chain. I don’t see how decriminalization accomplishes anything other than saving court costs/costs of imprisonment.
Gunax 5y ago
The libertarian in me says yes, but practically I know there are very few heroin users who are otherwise normal. The problem with the victimless claim is that it's literally true, but practically absurd. I am conflicted.
- tomjen3 5y ago
  Maybe if they didn't have to chase illegal drugs, they would only be semi-broken, like the rest of us? And at the very least there wouldn't be space for gangs, the quality on the heroin would be higher and it would be possible to ensure the drug was only take at certain locations, maybe even create an opt-out or opt-in model where you needed to wait a few weeks from the time you have requested access until you get your heroin card?
- nucleardog 5y ago
  And yet, despite it being illegal you apparently know heroin users. So what exactly is criminalizing it accomplishing? I agree that people shouldn’t use heroin. But obviously prohibition is not working. Just to throw all the cards on the table, I'm by no means what anyone these days would describe as "libertarian". I don't think drugs should be legal for the sake of everything being legal, I think they should be legal because making them illegal doesn't accomplish the singular goal of stopping people from using them, and creates a lot of other deleterious effects.
  - bladegash 5y ago
    To preface this, I am and have been conflicted on this topic as well. I lean a bit towards the possibility of finding a balance between efforts to reduce supply (e.g., some form of criminalization) while also treating demand (e.g., research into causes/factors leading to drug use, free substance abuse treatment, methadone/suboxone, etc.). That being said, I don't think anyone expects criminalization to yield zero use. I think the goal of criminalization is to make it more difficult to obtain the drugs and to dissuade people from starting drug use and/or continuing it.
  - Gunax 5y ago
    I don't think you know that criminalization isn't working. You need to compare to what would happen if it were legal. Just because the number of users is > 0 does not mean criminalization doesnt work. Certainly the biggest issue is that heroin costs money, and addicts will do anything for their dose. Making it legal--but not free--doesn't stop this. But there are other issues too (child neglect, homelessness, accosting people on the street) that even providing free drugs doesn't eliminate. Alcohol prohibition might not have been worth it (in the sense that the curbs on freedom were too expensive) but it definitely worked in the sense of dramatically reducing alcohol deaths, diseases, and domestic disputes. We should certainly consider making it legal--but not because zero heroin users was the goal.
herbst 5y ago
We have legal and clean heroin given out, for basically free, by the state here in switzerland and from my personal experience these are the least city image damaging junkies ive seen around europe. Many of them even have regular work as they have no need to get criminal for their next shot.

ggm 5y ago

Is there a case for RE legalising heroin: my aunt was one of a small number of GPs in London licenced to prescribe heroin to addicts in the sixties and seventies as part of a treatment programme.

rakhodorkovsky 5y ago
Switzerland has had programs giving methadone and heroin to addicts for more than 20 years now. They've been a success; heroin use has plummeted since it's peak in the 90s. One reason for the success is that giving out free product kills the local market; many users finance their use by selling to and actively recruiting new users.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Or just straight up property crime. Breaking a window to steal $3 in change. Not sure why/how the property insurance industry hasn’t lobbied government for this yet.
  - nickik 5y ago
    My great ant and uncle who were wealthy and lived in Zürich would put 300Fr in cash by the entrance area of their house. The idea being that if a junkie would break in, they would just take that money and leave. Before the legalization a common stereotype would by junkies breaking into places stealing a few things or destroying things while searching for valuables. Not sure if this is true or a sensible defense mechanism. However it shows something about the attitude during that time.

mythrwy 5y ago

Several cases most likely. If they could make it actually go away by banning it those cases become much weaker, but so far that hasn't worked out.

seibelj 5y ago

The only arguments against legalizing heroin are paternalistic - not trusting people to be responsible. In a bygone era I was prescribed Percocet for a dental procedure, which I have been told is an extremely strong opioid, and I did not like the numb feeling and eventually threw them away. So I have 100% proof that not everyone who takes opioids gets addicted and winds up in the gutter. The absolute truth is that drug use is a victimless crime and banning it doesn’t make it go away. I would argue the death of legendary actor Philip Seymour Hoffman was a direct result of this - he purchased heroin off the black market, was an experienced heroin user, but the potency of the drug is unpredictable and he accidentally overdosed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Seymour_Hoffman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Seymour_Hoffman America is finally legalizing marijuana and soon magic mushrooms. I would argue LSD and MDMA are not far behind. Why stop there? Cocaine and heroin are not the devil incarnate - I don’t see why we continually move the goal posts for “good” drugs but say others are beyond the pale. I don’t care what your anecdata says as an “experienced” drug user - I have had several friends become marijuana burnouts who still work shit jobs, if you want to argue heroin is simply too dangerous for society then alcohol and weed should get the ban as well. The push for individual rights continues. I guarantee you within 10 years prostitution will be fully legalized in progressive coastal states. I don’t see why we can’t accept vice as a natural human past time (people like pleasure) and try to manage the down-sides of legalization the same way we do with all other legalized vice like gambling (state lotteries(!)) and alcohol. Better this than a bunch of criminals providing it anyway.

solipsism 5y ago
drug use is a victimless crime That's not remotely true. Use of certain drugs (such as heroin) leads to horrible expectations for children of addicts. These children can only be thought of as victims of heroin use. Now I'm not saying that should be used to curtail the freedom of non-parents. But the experience of children shouldn't be ignored either. And I'm the first person who will agree that alcohol abuse in the home leads to horrible expectations for children as well. try to manage the down-sides of legalization the same way we do with all other legalized vice like gambling (state lotteries(!)) and alcohol Well, we don't do a good job of this. Alcohol has a devastating effect on lives (but of course not all lives, save your down votes recreational drinkers)

alpineidyll3 5y ago

Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.

grphtrdr 5y ago
I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.
- ianai 5y ago
  Agreed. Want to make serious strides on illegal immigration to the US? Remove the funding of the cartels.
  - randompwd 5y ago
    ...or force them to quadruple down on alternative income streams such as human smuggling instead of drug smuggling.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      Are the cartels facing a labour shortage or something and sticking to their core competency and opting-out of other industries?
- Gravey 5y ago
  Could you explain how decriminalization helps to defund the cartels? With legalization comes regulation and better control over the supply chain. I don’t see how decriminalization accomplishes anything other than saving court costs/costs of imprisonment.

Gunax 5y ago

The libertarian in me says yes, but practically I know there are very few heroin users who are otherwise normal. The problem with the victimless claim is that it's literally true, but practically absurd. I am conflicted.

tomjen3 5y ago
Maybe if they didn't have to chase illegal drugs, they would only be semi-broken, like the rest of us? And at the very least there wouldn't be space for gangs, the quality on the heroin would be higher and it would be possible to ensure the drug was only take at certain locations, maybe even create an opt-out or opt-in model where you needed to wait a few weeks from the time you have requested access until you get your heroin card?
nucleardog 5y ago
And yet, despite it being illegal you apparently know heroin users. So what exactly is criminalizing it accomplishing? I agree that people shouldn’t use heroin. But obviously prohibition is not working. Just to throw all the cards on the table, I'm by no means what anyone these days would describe as "libertarian". I don't think drugs should be legal for the sake of everything being legal, I think they should be legal because making them illegal doesn't accomplish the singular goal of stopping people from using them, and creates a lot of other deleterious effects.
- bladegash 5y ago
  To preface this, I am and have been conflicted on this topic as well. I lean a bit towards the possibility of finding a balance between efforts to reduce supply (e.g., some form of criminalization) while also treating demand (e.g., research into causes/factors leading to drug use, free substance abuse treatment, methadone/suboxone, etc.). That being said, I don't think anyone expects criminalization to yield zero use. I think the goal of criminalization is to make it more difficult to obtain the drugs and to dissuade people from starting drug use and/or continuing it.
- Gunax 5y ago
  I don't think you know that criminalization isn't working. You need to compare to what would happen if it were legal. Just because the number of users is > 0 does not mean criminalization doesnt work. Certainly the biggest issue is that heroin costs money, and addicts will do anything for their dose. Making it legal--but not free--doesn't stop this. But there are other issues too (child neglect, homelessness, accosting people on the street) that even providing free drugs doesn't eliminate. Alcohol prohibition might not have been worth it (in the sense that the curbs on freedom were too expensive) but it definitely worked in the sense of dramatically reducing alcohol deaths, diseases, and domestic disputes. We should certainly consider making it legal--but not because zero heroin users was the goal.

herbst 5y ago

We have legal and clean heroin given out, for basically free, by the state here in switzerland and from my personal experience these are the least city image damaging junkies ive seen around europe. Many of them even have regular work as they have no need to get criminal for their next shot.