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I find this is true even within software. There is a large complaint about not enough engineers. There are enough engineers - it’s just that you won’t pay enoug

I find this is true even within software. There is a large complaint about not enough engineers. There are enough engineers - it’s just that you won’t pay enough for them for the given locale! If every startup started compensating like FAANG, they’d have no trouble finding talent. Personally, I’ve had to go through this recently where I received 5 job offers. All well below what I’d consider “market” rate. They were all lower than past offers. Basically, companies are being very cheap with equity and/or salary. If you live in SF and are a senior engineer, giving equity that only matches FAANG when the company hits an absurd valuation that will likely never come is just not going to get people to come. Why bother? Whole point of startups is that you could earn more than faang if you get lucky enough. It shouldn’t be that you just match FAANG if you get lucky.

thunfischbrot 6y ago
Meh - I see one of the benefits of working outside of FAANG and other enterprises to work on something you trule believe in. Who truly loves working on improving the returns on online advertising to extract more money out of people's pockets?
- judge2020 6y ago
  Some people truly love problem solving and don't have to believe in the product to feel fulfilled. The 2 million dollar house with a Model S in the garage and the money to start any hobby at any time doesn't hurt either.
- bradlys 6y ago
  I mean, that’s nice but it doesn’t really afford a typical professional middle class lifestyle that you would see outside the SF bay area. (Unless partner is at FAANG or surgeon) You’re mostly stuck at liquid comp of $180-220k tops. Obviously if the startup works out, hallelujah. But if it doesn’t - that salary sucks for trying to have a home in a nice school district along with some normal vacations and what not.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > You’re mostly stuck at liquid comp of $180-220k tops [...] that salary sucks for trying to have a home in a nice school district along with some normal vacations and what not. Do you mean "in SF, where the cost of living is extremely high", or are you suggesting that you can't have a comfortable life on $180k/year?
    - bradlys 6y ago
      Yes - SF Bay Area. Obviously you could live like a king in some other regions but they wouldn’t pay $180k most likely for random startup senior software engineer.
luckylion 6y ago
> If every startup started compensating like FAANG, they’d have no trouble finding talent. That can't work. Current talent is a zero-sum game. You offer more, you get someone to switch over to you, somebody else offers more still and takes that person from you. You might attract more future talent to the industry by offering more, but since software developers already make 2-10 times the average, I doubt that people think "you just can't make money in software, I'm going to do something else".
- bradlys 6y ago
  A lot of people I know who stop being software engineers do it because they found something more profitable. (Management, executive track, founding their own company, etc.) Part of the reason is that salary progression after the first 10 years is generally flat for IC level. Yet, it continues almost indefinitely for other tracks or roles related to software.
  - chii 6y ago
    > salary progression after the first 10 years is generally flat for IC level that is expected, if the salary matched the value creation of an IC. There's a limit to how much work one can produce. The reason management has a higher progression is because they do different work, and thus the ceiling is different. But a ceiling does exist. The only "work" that has no ceiling for compensation is equity ownership.
    - bradlys 6y ago
      I agree to some extent but I find that as an IC (especially in startups) you can add even more value than random middle manager or even some executives. Yet, you still don’t get compensated like that. Many CTO’s I’ve dealt with were a net negative in terms for the company - yet, they still get 10x the equity and much higher salary. So... :/
  - luckylion 6y ago
    That's a different issue though, isn't it? The money in software development is still much better than in most industries. I don't think millions of people are thinking "well, I could make lots of money in software ... but management pays much better if I get one of those jobs ... so I better go into [unrelated, lower paying field]". What I'm trying to say is that software is very attractive compared to other jobs, but still we don't see everyone rushing into it. I believe that's because money isn't the factor.

thunfischbrot 6y ago

Meh - I see one of the benefits of working outside of FAANG and other enterprises to work on something you trule believe in. Who truly loves working on improving the returns on online advertising to extract more money out of people's pockets?

judge2020 6y ago
Some people truly love problem solving and don't have to believe in the product to feel fulfilled. The 2 million dollar house with a Model S in the garage and the money to start any hobby at any time doesn't hurt either.
bradlys 6y ago
I mean, that’s nice but it doesn’t really afford a typical professional middle class lifestyle that you would see outside the SF bay area. (Unless partner is at FAANG or surgeon) You’re mostly stuck at liquid comp of $180-220k tops. Obviously if the startup works out, hallelujah. But if it doesn’t - that salary sucks for trying to have a home in a nice school district along with some normal vacations and what not.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > You’re mostly stuck at liquid comp of $180-220k tops [...] that salary sucks for trying to have a home in a nice school district along with some normal vacations and what not. Do you mean "in SF, where the cost of living is extremely high", or are you suggesting that you can't have a comfortable life on $180k/year?
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Yes - SF Bay Area. Obviously you could live like a king in some other regions but they wouldn’t pay $180k most likely for random startup senior software engineer.

luckylion 6y ago

> If every startup started compensating like FAANG, they’d have no trouble finding talent. That can't work. Current talent is a zero-sum game. You offer more, you get someone to switch over to you, somebody else offers more still and takes that person from you. You might attract more future talent to the industry by offering more, but since software developers already make 2-10 times the average, I doubt that people think "you just can't make money in software, I'm going to do something else".

bradlys 6y ago
A lot of people I know who stop being software engineers do it because they found something more profitable. (Management, executive track, founding their own company, etc.) Part of the reason is that salary progression after the first 10 years is generally flat for IC level. Yet, it continues almost indefinitely for other tracks or roles related to software.
- chii 6y ago
  > salary progression after the first 10 years is generally flat for IC level that is expected, if the salary matched the value creation of an IC. There's a limit to how much work one can produce. The reason management has a higher progression is because they do different work, and thus the ceiling is different. But a ceiling does exist. The only "work" that has no ceiling for compensation is equity ownership.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I agree to some extent but I find that as an IC (especially in startups) you can add even more value than random middle manager or even some executives. Yet, you still don’t get compensated like that. Many CTO’s I’ve dealt with were a net negative in terms for the company - yet, they still get 10x the equity and much higher salary. So... :/
- luckylion 6y ago
  That's a different issue though, isn't it? The money in software development is still much better than in most industries. I don't think millions of people are thinking "well, I could make lots of money in software ... but management pays much better if I get one of those jobs ... so I better go into [unrelated, lower paying field]". What I'm trying to say is that software is very attractive compared to other jobs, but still we don't see everyone rushing into it. I believe that's because money isn't the factor.