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Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record play
by alexvoda 6y ago
Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation.
As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc.
We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction.
To move the overton window even a little bit towards where it was before, the demands have to be disproportionate. I say those demands are still reasonable. We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able (just like AMD was a second source for early x86 chips). And for that matter since I am from Europe, any component should be second source-able from Europe. If IP transfers worked for China, they should work elsewhere.
(1) https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1012672/Pioneer-C-5600dfv.html https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1012672/Pioneer-C-5600dfv....
- jimmaswell 6y agoI wonder how big the manual would have to be for a smartphone with the equivalent of those old stereo diagrams.
- tratax 6y agoMaybe not that big, unfortunately a lot of the connections will end up going to that SoC that does most of the work and is probably obsolete by the time you want to repair it.
- thereddaikon 6y agoLook up board view files. Those are the kinds of schematics people are talking about. Louis Rossman uses them on his Youtube channel to do board level repairs of Macs and iOS devices. They are not all you need copy a device outright, contrary to what some people in the comments think. But they are sufficient for you to track down faulty components and de-solder them.
- maxerickson 6y agoCan't you do that without imposing it on everyone else? I care about consumption (I'm on my 2nd laptop since ~2003), but I don't particularly want to pay $15,000 to replace this one with one that is worse.
- michaelmrose 6y agoThe average computer is around 700 including ones that are relatively repairable and ones that are not. Pretending that repairable laptops cost 20 times as much is disingenuous.
- maxerickson 6y ago(In the comment) They want to be able to source a drop in cpu from 2 different supply chains. And they want that for every piece and part on the thing.
- michaelmrose 6y agoThat would pretty much require standardization of cpu socket between vendors to allow one to drop a compatible generation of intel or amd processor into a slot. This sounds onerous but I doubt it would require increasing the unit cost by 20 times.
- dang 6y ago> disingenuous That implies intent to deceive, which crosses into personal attack. Can you please not do that on HN? If you feel that someone else is wrong, it's enough to provide correct information in a neutral way. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- michaelmrose 6y agoWould you prefer hyperbolic?
- 6y ago
- usaphp 6y agoI see a good intention behind it, but it only works only if only honest people and companies exist. It’s not the case in real world. What would prevent a competitor simply copying the whole product and offering a cheaper price because they didn’t have to invest in R&D, and those engineers who spent many years working on a finished schematics will be out of job because the company won’t be able to make a living selling more expensive products?
- Retric 6y agoPatents and reputation aka trade marks. Speakers for example are extremely well understood technology yet premium speakers are still a thing.
- operator-name 6y agoSpeakers and computer components are great examples of where companies provide less tangible benifits in quality control and customer support.
- reaperducer 6y agoWhat would prevent a competitor simply copying the whole product and offering a cheaper price Whatever it was that kept this from happening from the advent of electronics up to the invention of the smartphone.
- thaumasiotes 6y agoThis isn't a totally unreasonable position to take, but in some cases "whatever it was that kept this from happening before" really is nothing more than "nobody had thought of it yet".
- emkoemko 6y agothere is a big big difference between a schematic that will aid people in repairs and ones that are used to manufacture the boards...and no one fighting for right to repair is asking for that anyways system76 talks about this in this interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGle6z9KfZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGle6z9KfZQ
- reaperducer 6y agoElectronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation For a short time in college I worked fixing stereos at a big-name electronics company's east coast repair facility. You could always tell the gear that people had tried to fix themselves before sending it back to us as a last resort. We didn't begrudge them trying on their own. In fact, it was encouraged because home repairs kept the cost of maintaining the repair facility down. These days, since everything gets chucked in the garbage when it breaks, I guess that logic doesn't work anymore. As an aside, the Commodore 64 didn't come with the schematics, but they were part of the Programmer's Reference Guide, which many people had, and could be bought in most bookstores.
- CountSessine 6y agoThis was in a very different era, when manufacturing was difficult and expensive. Having the schematic didn't necessarily get you anywhere. That's no longer the case - now the design is expensive but the manufacturing is cheap.
- OrwellianChild 6y agoCan you articulate what that has to do with repairability?
- CountSessine 6y agoFor one thing, I think it's an important point to make when someone else makes the, "look how repairability has regressed since the golden era of getting the Apple II schematics in the box with the computer!". At the time, design was cheap. Why not give it to your customers? It's not like they're going to go out and make one themselves. The fact that manufacturing is cheap now and schematics are not only the key to repairability but also counterfeit Chinese knock-offs is a problem worth understanding.
- TheRealDunkirk 6y agoI think Americans are still largely clueless about how extensively the PRC has infiltrated the governments and companies of the world, and how much IP they have stolen. If they want it; they have it. Heck, my company is doing everything they can to prevent users from messing with our firmware, but we have to give all the keys to China to sell our products there. All they had to do was ask. There’s no need to make it hard for owners to get to.
- OrwellianChild 6y agoI don't think this argument is related whether or not people should be able to source and repair the devices they own. R2R doesn't require redesign of products - only that parts and documentation should be made available so indie shops and DIYers can have the option. This is as opposed to the status quo, where manufacturers like Apple and Samsung currently cause their phones to malfunction when replacing parts without proprietary software switches - even when those parts are OEM. [1] [1] https://www.ifixit.com/News/45921/is-this-the-end-of-the-repairable-iphone https://www.ifixit.com/News/45921/is-this-the-end-of-the-rep...
- 35fbe7d3d5b9 6y ago> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something. I don't see how we get back, considering the market just isn't there: it'd rather treat devices as things that we lease for a low cost from a vertically-integrated company.
- OrwellianChild 6y agoYour approach will always be a valid choice, for those who want it, and companies will be happy to provide that device-as-a-service model. R2R is just seeking to preserve the practical access to repairability for those who want to service their own devices.
- alwaysdoit 6y agoNo it's not, it's looking to enshrine that standard by law for everyone. Nothing is stopping consumers from demanding phones that are self-serviceable, they just simply aren't willing to accept the tradeoffs involved (larger size, worse thermals, higher price, etc). If you disagree, there's an unserved market segment wide open for you!
- datameta 6y agoLet's set aside software RTR, which at first glance I believe has no increased costs associated (besides a decreased profit margin from lack of shortened support windows and a locked-down ecosystem). Could you expand on the specifics of what changes RTR would necessitate the hardware to have? Let's say beyond the fact that a non-reversible bond/connector would otherwise be the cheapest option (saving perhaps fractions of pennies on the BOM).
- LexGray 6y agoMandated right repair would raise weight for battery containers and latches, higher failure as connections would not be soldered in place and hinges and latches may fail, less water resistance as seals may get bumped loose, easier access for hardware hacks for bad actors, more potential consumer injury device damage during repair attempts, and more likely fire scenarios in planes and public areas from incorrectly installed parts. It is attempting to deny consumers those benefits.
- ChrisLomont 6y ago>Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. Nearly every electronic device I bought in the 1970s did not have included schematics. TI-55, Pong console, digital watches, Speak'n'Spell, transistor radios, Mattell football and baseball handhelds, Simon... and on and on. Nearly everything then was also not easily repairable, and certainly not by an average consumer.
- anonymousiam 6y agoOpen up that old transistor radio and you will usually find a tiny printed schematic diagram affixed to the inside of the removable cover.
- ChrisLomont 6y agoNope :) As a kid taking everything apart, and as an adult collecting some old gadgets I had as kid, there is generally no such thing. I just listed quite a few gadgets that definitely do not have schematics glued inside.
- inetknght 6y ago> Nearly everything then was also not easily repairable, and certainly not by an average consumer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone's saying that "an average consumer" in the terms of "I can't tell the difference between a hammer and a soldering iron" should be able to repair their devices. But I think that if the consumer can demonstrate some minimum level of interest (education, certification, or at least competence) then they absolutely should be able to repair devices they own. And, further, that owning devices and software should be the default and normal thing. The trend today of renting/leasing things is clearly anti-consumer.
- kaibee 6y ago> Nearly everything then was also not easily repairable, and certainly not by an average consumer. Sure, but repair shops could exist that would specialize in doing all sorts of repairs.
- Spooky23 6y agoBe careful. My dad replaced a defective memory chip on his IBM PC XT.. but the computer cost the equivalent of $12k. I’d rather throw away a dozen modern laptops than fix one that costs 10x.
- opencl 6y agoYou can replace the memory and storage on just about every desktop computer today that isn't made by Apple, and a decent fraction of laptops. They do not cost 10x as much as devices with soldered RAM and SSDs.
- creaturemachine 6y agoYour comparison does not work. Replaceable parts didn't make that IBM cost what it did.
- scientismer 6y agoYes it did. Computers became cheaper because more and more functionality can simply be combined on single chips. You can not replace parts of broken chips at home. Look into Apple's M1.
- michaelmrose 6y agoAverage spend on a computer hasn't gone down recently. In the era when it actually did go down it was because volume and reliability went up, and cost of manufacturing went down as process improved. Phones have been system on a chip since the dawn of the era of the smartphone and few computers are. The difference between repairable and not is the difference between glue and screws and sockets vs solder. You have basically misunderstood everything.
- scientismer 6y agoAverage spend has of course gone down - you can get the same computer you would have gotten 10 years ago for a lot cheaper now. Computers have gotten a lot faster, that is why "spend" has kept up. And you seem to suggest that early smartphones were already as fast as an M1, because they were "systems on a chip". That is not the case. Not all SoCs are the same, more and more things have been integrated over time. And sockets take up space, making for thicker smartphones. People don't actually want that.
- ABeeSea 6y agoOne electronic device from the 70s doesn’t support the statement “Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation.”
- mntmn 6y agoShameless plug: We're doing this with the MNT Reform laptop: https://mntre.com/reform2/handbook/schematics.html https://mntre.com/reform2/handbook/schematics.html There's also a print version of this book that is included with the assembled version of the device: https://shop.mntmn.com/products/mnt-reform-operator-handbook https://shop.mntmn.com/products/mnt-reform-operator-handbook
- sircastor 6y agoWhile going through my father’s things after he passed away, I found there instructions for an old television that included the full schematic for the device. If something was malfunctioning, and you were willing, you could fix it. For a 15 year old e-reader I found the repair manual online, which contained a full schematic. For a more recently released e-reader from the same company, the repair manual simply has a disassembly step-by-step. I can only imagine the company found it not worth the effort for technicians to actually repair anything.
- tomjen3 6y agoThat would amount to saying that we in Europe can't use any technology that is less than what 20 years old? You can't even replace an Intel CPU with an AMD one unless your motherboard supports both. Good luck finding a modern laptop with a socketed CPU. I get where you are coming from, and it would be nice not to be locked down to one vendor, but the cost to enable that is so high as to be not worth it. I would rather the manufactures have to state their support up front and then you know what you buy when you buy it.