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PCs and even most laptops have been very repairable for decades. You can still run Windows or Linux on a 10+ (20+?) year old laptop without an issue. The idea t

PCs and even most laptops have been very repairable for decades. You can still run Windows or Linux on a 10+ (20+?) year old laptop without an issue. The idea that a 5 year old laptop would be unusable or not get the latest version of Windows is unacceptable. Yet phones cost similar amounts and have nowhere near the repairability. A decade ago you could argue that it wasn't that important - specs were changing so quickly that new phones became obsolete too quickly. But now it's a maturing technology, older devices are perfectly good and we still don't have an ecosystem which encourages longevity and re-use. This is eminently doable - phones are essentially integrated computers. The only reason phones are locked and PCs aren't is historical. If phone manufacturers aren't willing to do it themselves, we should legislate before even more e-waste is generated.

Koshkin 6y ago
> or not get the latest version of Windows Not sure about this one: the continued support for older versions - yes, but the latest? Nobody can give you such promise (unless they explicitly do, for one reason or another).
- OkGoDoIt 6y ago
  I can easily install the latest version of windows 10 on even a 10 year old computer. But more importantly, I can still install Windows 7 on a 10-year-old computer if I want to. And it will still work, and most programs will still run on it. Or I can install an alternate operating system like Linux. Whereas with my iPhone, I literally can’t install an old version of the operating system or an alternate os, no matter how old or new the device. And if I do happen to have a device that still has an old operating system, most apps refuse to run because the API surface area changes constantly. And if you have old versions of apps, they mostly all phone home to check versions now and won’t run until you update them. It’s a never ending cycle and you have no control over it.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  I have a 10 year old desktop and a 12 year old laptop that both run the latest Windows 10 with no issues.
JoshTko 6y ago
The trend for lack of reparability in smartphones is because of consumer preferences. Consumers are consistently choosing devices that are smaller, lighter, higher durability, waterproof, cheaper etc. vs. devices that are more repairable that do not have those features.
- fsh 6y ago
  Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? A rubber gasket and a few screws work just as well without compromising repairability. Wristwatches have been constructed like this for centuries, while being a lot smaller and lighter than any smartphone. Maybe it would slightly increase the BOM and assembly cost, but considering that it fits in the budget of a 30€ Casio, probably not by much. I guess the real problem is that manufacturers really don't want you to repair your phones and customer's don't care enough for it to make a difference in the market.
  - ChrisLomont 6y ago
    > Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? Glue helps with heat dissipation, physical shocks, vibration knocking plugs loose, provides electrical insulation, chemical resistance, and makes the components less able to vibrate over time and knock things loose, makes sensor positioning more stable, and even makes things easier to assemble since less individual fasteners are needed.
    - chmod775 6y ago
      Your response doesn't actually address the point you quoted. But yeah. You can either do thoughtful engineering and careful assembly... or you can achieve close to the same thing with glue.
      - giantrobot 6y ago
        The demand for smartphones is hundreds of millions per year. Manufacturing a hundred million of a complex thing is orders of magnitude more difficult than manufacturing ones of millions of a complex thing. A small complex thing with tight tolerances is harder yet. Setting a part in a jig, brushing a dab of glue, and setting a second part on top is much faster than the same process but fastening a couple screws to the appropriate tightness. It's also less error prone and creates a better bond between the parts. Apple and Samsung pump out tens of millions of phones a quarter. The more effort required for each stage of assembly ends up the difference of millions of phones manufactured in the same period of time.
34679 6y ago
5 year old laptops are repairable, but fewer and fewer new ones are not. I've been in the market recently and it's extremely frustrating trying to find a laptop that doesn't have the RAM soldered in place. Sure, it can technically be desoldered, but that's not how it used to be.
- GordonS 6y ago
  I'm hunting for a new laptop just now, and just about everything has at least one DIMM soldered, with many having both soldered. Driving me nuts! Is there a convincing technical reason why everybody is doing this nowadays?
  - FearlessNebula 6y ago
    Force you to choose more RAM from the factory where they charge high margins.
    - GordonS 6y ago
      Well, that's not a very convincing technical argument :) Even this wouldn't be so bad if they actually sold configurations with more than 16GB RAM...
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    To make it thinner. And I 100% blame Apple for this. IMO, Apple is not a tech company, but a fashion company. Or more accurately, they produce technology that's optimized to be fashionable. Thin laptops are more sleek, but to make them thinner will require parts to be soldered to the motherboard, since an actual slot will add 3mm or whatever. Other companies feel like they have to match Apple, and so they follow suit. The thing is, AFAIK, nobody is asking for laptops to be only 0.63 inches (16.1 mm) thick, but that's what people are buying. Apple advertises how thin the MacBook Air is, and the masses go wild over it.
    - GordonS 6y ago
      I'm with you on this - the marketing spiel of thinness at the expense of all else drivers me nuts! I do want a thin laptop, and as someone who travelled a lot for work while living with a physically disabling medical condition, lightness is important to me too. But I don't care half a shit if it's 16mm thick instead of 16.1mm, if you've disabled the device to do it!
PartiallyTyped 6y ago
Repairable is not limited to just OS support, but fair and equal access to replacement components. For example, apple can ask Texas Instruments to not sell a particular chip that is used on their logic boards to anyone else but them, rendering odds of third party repair slimmer [1]. Apple went as far as to prevent genuine, that is, salvaged parts, from legitimately bought phones, from being used to replace camera units [2,3,4], or lock phones with replaced batteries. [1] https://youtu.be/w4eHZCuHob8?t=175 https://youtu.be/w4eHZCuHob8?t=175 Louis talks about part availability [2] https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/30/21542242/apple-iphone-12-third-party-repairs-ifixit-camera-module-replacement https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/30/21542242/apple-iphone-12... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnG3h3Jewq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnG3h3Jewq4 [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez3f1HgOa1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez3f1HgOa1o
- neop1x 6y ago
  Yes, it is often impossible to source things like Intel CPUs or chipsets. They sell them to device manufacturers only in millions. Even if you have IR rework station and can solder BGA chips you have no reliable source of these chips. It is even worse with Apple devices where they often use parts not publicly available at all (custom-made for them) and sometimes if they use a common STM32 micro, there is no firmware available to program it and it won't work without the firmware.

Koshkin 6y ago

> or not get the latest version of Windows Not sure about this one: the continued support for older versions - yes, but the latest? Nobody can give you such promise (unless they explicitly do, for one reason or another).

OkGoDoIt 6y ago
I can easily install the latest version of windows 10 on even a 10 year old computer. But more importantly, I can still install Windows 7 on a 10-year-old computer if I want to. And it will still work, and most programs will still run on it. Or I can install an alternate operating system like Linux. Whereas with my iPhone, I literally can’t install an old version of the operating system or an alternate os, no matter how old or new the device. And if I do happen to have a device that still has an old operating system, most apps refuse to run because the API surface area changes constantly. And if you have old versions of apps, they mostly all phone home to check versions now and won’t run until you update them. It’s a never ending cycle and you have no control over it.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
I have a 10 year old desktop and a 12 year old laptop that both run the latest Windows 10 with no issues.

JoshTko 6y ago

The trend for lack of reparability in smartphones is because of consumer preferences. Consumers are consistently choosing devices that are smaller, lighter, higher durability, waterproof, cheaper etc. vs. devices that are more repairable that do not have those features.

fsh 6y ago
Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? A rubber gasket and a few screws work just as well without compromising repairability. Wristwatches have been constructed like this for centuries, while being a lot smaller and lighter than any smartphone. Maybe it would slightly increase the BOM and assembly cost, but considering that it fits in the budget of a 30€ Casio, probably not by much. I guess the real problem is that manufacturers really don't want you to repair your phones and customer's don't care enough for it to make a difference in the market.
- ChrisLomont 6y ago
  > Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? Glue helps with heat dissipation, physical shocks, vibration knocking plugs loose, provides electrical insulation, chemical resistance, and makes the components less able to vibrate over time and knock things loose, makes sensor positioning more stable, and even makes things easier to assemble since less individual fasteners are needed.
  - chmod775 6y ago
    Your response doesn't actually address the point you quoted. But yeah. You can either do thoughtful engineering and careful assembly... or you can achieve close to the same thing with glue.
    - giantrobot 6y ago
      The demand for smartphones is hundreds of millions per year. Manufacturing a hundred million of a complex thing is orders of magnitude more difficult than manufacturing ones of millions of a complex thing. A small complex thing with tight tolerances is harder yet. Setting a part in a jig, brushing a dab of glue, and setting a second part on top is much faster than the same process but fastening a couple screws to the appropriate tightness. It's also less error prone and creates a better bond between the parts. Apple and Samsung pump out tens of millions of phones a quarter. The more effort required for each stage of assembly ends up the difference of millions of phones manufactured in the same period of time.

34679 6y ago

5 year old laptops are repairable, but fewer and fewer new ones are not. I've been in the market recently and it's extremely frustrating trying to find a laptop that doesn't have the RAM soldered in place. Sure, it can technically be desoldered, but that's not how it used to be.

GordonS 6y ago
I'm hunting for a new laptop just now, and just about everything has at least one DIMM soldered, with many having both soldered. Driving me nuts! Is there a convincing technical reason why everybody is doing this nowadays?
- FearlessNebula 6y ago
  Force you to choose more RAM from the factory where they charge high margins.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    Well, that's not a very convincing technical argument :) Even this wouldn't be so bad if they actually sold configurations with more than 16GB RAM...
- Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
  To make it thinner. And I 100% blame Apple for this. IMO, Apple is not a tech company, but a fashion company. Or more accurately, they produce technology that's optimized to be fashionable. Thin laptops are more sleek, but to make them thinner will require parts to be soldered to the motherboard, since an actual slot will add 3mm or whatever. Other companies feel like they have to match Apple, and so they follow suit. The thing is, AFAIK, nobody is asking for laptops to be only 0.63 inches (16.1 mm) thick, but that's what people are buying. Apple advertises how thin the MacBook Air is, and the masses go wild over it.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    I'm with you on this - the marketing spiel of thinness at the expense of all else drivers me nuts! I do want a thin laptop, and as someone who travelled a lot for work while living with a physically disabling medical condition, lightness is important to me too. But I don't care half a shit if it's 16mm thick instead of 16.1mm, if you've disabled the device to do it!

PartiallyTyped 6y ago

Repairable is not limited to just OS support, but fair and equal access to replacement components. For example, apple can ask Texas Instruments to not sell a particular chip that is used on their logic boards to anyone else but them, rendering odds of third party repair slimmer [1]. Apple went as far as to prevent genuine, that is, salvaged parts, from legitimately bought phones, from being used to replace camera units [2,3,4], or lock phones with replaced batteries. [1] https://youtu.be/w4eHZCuHob8?t=175 https://youtu.be/w4eHZCuHob8?t=175 Louis talks about part availability [2] https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/30/21542242/apple-iphone-12-third-party-repairs-ifixit-camera-module-replacement https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/30/21542242/apple-iphone-12... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnG3h3Jewq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnG3h3Jewq4 [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez3f1HgOa1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez3f1HgOa1o

neop1x 6y ago
Yes, it is often impossible to source things like Intel CPUs or chipsets. They sell them to device manufacturers only in millions. Even if you have IR rework station and can solder BGA chips you have no reliable source of these chips. It is even worse with Apple devices where they often use parts not publicly available at all (custom-made for them) and sometimes if they use a common STM32 micro, there is no firmware available to program it and it won't work without the firmware.