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You say that like senior management typically makes decisions based on data and facts, rather than the reality where they just shoot from the hip using their "g

You say that like senior management typically makes decisions based on data and facts, rather than the reality where they just shoot from the hip using their "gut." By the same logic implied here, we cannot trust senior management to know what they're doing. PS - Also Google's measures of productivity are terrible, that's why they keep starting/killing new projects ever other week, and killed their golden goose in their so-called "20-percent rule."

spoonjim 6y ago
Yet somehow, these boneheads haven’t driven Google to bankruptcy yet, so I don’t think their decisionmaking authority is in immediate jeopardy.
- seg_lol 6y ago
  You don't have to make good decisions when you are riding the Ads Rocket!
  - microtherion 6y ago
    There is a great deal of ruin in a FAANG, as Adam Smith would say.
elite_hackers3 6y ago
This is one of the worst comments I’ve ever read.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mox1 6y ago
Can't trust the senior managers of one of the largest revenue generating companies on the plant? With probably the highest Revenue per employee ever in the history of modern business (if not highest, up there). I dunno, seems like they are doing ok at their jobs....
- newsclues 6y ago
  They seem like they are doing a good job because we don’t have anything better to compare to. America is one of the best countries in the world, therefore its leadership has to be smart and competent.
- pembrook 6y ago
  98%+ of Google’s senior managers today weren’t around when the company originally pioneered and grew the business lines that pay those manager’s salaries. They didn’t build the ship, they’re just passengers. Hence why most companies fall out of the S&P 500 as quickly as they rise. If you think Google is going to stay on top forever you’re in for a rude awakening.
  - nunez 6y ago
    From what I saw when I was there, a large part of the top brass were there since before IPO...
- andrewprock 6y ago
  No, you cannot trust management at google. This site is clear evidence of that: https://killedbygoogle.com/ https://killedbygoogle.com/ I can think of no product at google that is not overshadowed by their policy of non-support. The culture that leads to their innovation also informs trust. If there is any such thing as "too innovative" then google is it. This is why Azure is doing so much better than google in cloud computing despite the fact that google invented modern cloud computing. People trust Microsoft to support their products.
- danaris 6y ago
  Statistically speaking, I wouldn't trust the senior managers of any company to genuinely know what measures will improve their business over the long term. Even leaving aside the depressingly large percentage who are fundamentally incompetent at managing (eg, the ones who think "yell louder and louder until people do what you demand" is an effective management style), a huge number of management at all levels are indoctrinated to believe that the next quarter's numbers, and hence the stock price, are the #1 priority at all times. And even among those who are genuinely trying to see that the business does well for years to come, rather than the next three months and then who cares, even among the ones of them who are genuinely decent at managing a product, far too few understand the positive relationship between how you treat your employees and what you get out of them. Because we've spent decades in this country being sold the idea that good management means forcing workers to work more hours, under tighter control, because "workers" are stupid, lazy, and/or malicious, and it is "managers" who really know how to do things right, by the very definition of their jobs.
throwaways885 6y ago
> and killed their golden goose in their so-called "20-percent rule." This is factually untrue. The only difference is Google is much larger, making it harder to launch new products.
skeeter2020 6y ago
The reason they start and kill so many projects is precisely because they are measuring top-level metrics and acting on them. A developer is going to look at how much functionality they implement, refactoring they complete or tickets they close and say "Wow, I've been so productive working from home". Management is going to look at growth and revenue, execution against top-level OKRs and the opportunity costs of competing options and maybe reach a different conclusion. The reality is that neither is probably a WFH issue as a first-order effect.
cglace 6y ago
I love how engineers pretend that they are the only ones acting rationally. It's as if they are playing chess and can never think there might be a reason behind the other players move, only their plan makes sense.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  The other option is that management is lying about what is important to them. I can accept that as well.
- andor 6y ago
  If engineers acted rationally, we would not have so many technology fads.
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    I would argue that is rational for the engineers who become less employable if they aren't doing the latest stuff and creating new libraries. The interests of engineers are often extremely detached from whether development is cost effective and maintainable by others.
    - intergalplan 6y ago
      This rational behavior in the face of stupid incentives is the same reason the rational set of management-sorts may not bother to make sure their facts & figures actually demonstrate what they claim they do, even when they know they probably don't. The extra effort wouldn't help them get the answer they're looking for, anyway, and might even harm their chances if they're honest about the level of uncertainty. The part that's stupid is everyone, even the ones who know better, pretending a bunch of bad statistics and such aren't bad, but if the suits in the room are nodding along you damn well better not point that out. People succeeding in the management track either actually are bad at understanding these things, or (plenty often) do understand but also know to STFU about it.
- intergalplan 6y ago
  I've seen an awful lot of either not understanding what a measurement means, or not caring, among management, including out of "top-tier" folks from e.g. management consulting firms you've heard of. Talking really obvious "experimental error" types of things. Taking a measurement as indicating something when there there are obvious confounders which, if you don't look into them, are probably making your number meaningless. I don't think engineers are the only rational ones, but I think the rational ones in management have noticed that their numbers being meaningful or correct only rarely matters for getting a "yes" or a promotion, so have responded... rationally, since getting useful figures and proving that they're useful is both 1) usually a lot more work, and 2) often not even practically possible.

spoonjim 6y ago

Yet somehow, these boneheads haven’t driven Google to bankruptcy yet, so I don’t think their decisionmaking authority is in immediate jeopardy.

seg_lol 6y ago
You don't have to make good decisions when you are riding the Ads Rocket!
- microtherion 6y ago
  There is a great deal of ruin in a FAANG, as Adam Smith would say.

elite_hackers3 6y ago

This is one of the worst comments I’ve ever read.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mox1 6y ago

Can't trust the senior managers of one of the largest revenue generating companies on the plant? With probably the highest Revenue per employee ever in the history of modern business (if not highest, up there). I dunno, seems like they are doing ok at their jobs....

newsclues 6y ago
They seem like they are doing a good job because we don’t have anything better to compare to. America is one of the best countries in the world, therefore its leadership has to be smart and competent.
pembrook 6y ago
98%+ of Google’s senior managers today weren’t around when the company originally pioneered and grew the business lines that pay those manager’s salaries. They didn’t build the ship, they’re just passengers. Hence why most companies fall out of the S&P 500 as quickly as they rise. If you think Google is going to stay on top forever you’re in for a rude awakening.
- nunez 6y ago
  From what I saw when I was there, a large part of the top brass were there since before IPO...
andrewprock 6y ago
No, you cannot trust management at google. This site is clear evidence of that: https://killedbygoogle.com/ https://killedbygoogle.com/ I can think of no product at google that is not overshadowed by their policy of non-support. The culture that leads to their innovation also informs trust. If there is any such thing as "too innovative" then google is it. This is why Azure is doing so much better than google in cloud computing despite the fact that google invented modern cloud computing. People trust Microsoft to support their products.
danaris 6y ago
Statistically speaking, I wouldn't trust the senior managers of any company to genuinely know what measures will improve their business over the long term. Even leaving aside the depressingly large percentage who are fundamentally incompetent at managing (eg, the ones who think "yell louder and louder until people do what you demand" is an effective management style), a huge number of management at all levels are indoctrinated to believe that the next quarter's numbers, and hence the stock price, are the #1 priority at all times. And even among those who are genuinely trying to see that the business does well for years to come, rather than the next three months and then who cares, even among the ones of them who are genuinely decent at managing a product, far too few understand the positive relationship between how you treat your employees and what you get out of them. Because we've spent decades in this country being sold the idea that good management means forcing workers to work more hours, under tighter control, because "workers" are stupid, lazy, and/or malicious, and it is "managers" who really know how to do things right, by the very definition of their jobs.

throwaways885 6y ago

> and killed their golden goose in their so-called "20-percent rule." This is factually untrue. The only difference is Google is much larger, making it harder to launch new products.

skeeter2020 6y ago

The reason they start and kill so many projects is precisely because they are measuring top-level metrics and acting on them. A developer is going to look at how much functionality they implement, refactoring they complete or tickets they close and say "Wow, I've been so productive working from home". Management is going to look at growth and revenue, execution against top-level OKRs and the opportunity costs of competing options and maybe reach a different conclusion. The reality is that neither is probably a WFH issue as a first-order effect.

cglace 6y ago

I love how engineers pretend that they are the only ones acting rationally. It's as if they are playing chess and can never think there might be a reason behind the other players move, only their plan makes sense.

MattGaiser 6y ago
The other option is that management is lying about what is important to them. I can accept that as well.
andor 6y ago
If engineers acted rationally, we would not have so many technology fads.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  I would argue that is rational for the engineers who become less employable if they aren't doing the latest stuff and creating new libraries. The interests of engineers are often extremely detached from whether development is cost effective and maintainable by others.
  - intergalplan 6y ago
    This rational behavior in the face of stupid incentives is the same reason the rational set of management-sorts may not bother to make sure their facts & figures actually demonstrate what they claim they do, even when they know they probably don't. The extra effort wouldn't help them get the answer they're looking for, anyway, and might even harm their chances if they're honest about the level of uncertainty. The part that's stupid is everyone, even the ones who know better, pretending a bunch of bad statistics and such aren't bad, but if the suits in the room are nodding along you damn well better not point that out. People succeeding in the management track either actually are bad at understanding these things, or (plenty often) do understand but also know to STFU about it.
intergalplan 6y ago
I've seen an awful lot of either not understanding what a measurement means, or not caring, among management, including out of "top-tier" folks from e.g. management consulting firms you've heard of. Talking really obvious "experimental error" types of things. Taking a measurement as indicating something when there there are obvious confounders which, if you don't look into them, are probably making your number meaningless. I don't think engineers are the only rational ones, but I think the rational ones in management have noticed that their numbers being meaningful or correct only rarely matters for getting a "yes" or a promotion, so have responded... rationally, since getting useful figures and proving that they're useful is both 1) usually a lot more work, and 2) often not even practically possible.