10 ms·

What people say they will do when there's no cost associated with an action and what people will actually do once a cost IS associated with the same action are

What people say they will do when there's no cost associated with an action and what people will actually do once a cost IS associated with the same action are frequently 2 different things. Bob Lutz, in his self-aggrandizing book "Gutz", describes the initial phase of an automobile design project where a survey is conducted asking respondents whether they would prefer a vehicle with heated cupholders. It turned out the percentage of people who responded positively was significantly higher than the percentage of people who ultimately chose to pay for the option in actual sales. I wonder if a similar effect will be seen regarding people returning to work.

AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
WTF do I want a heated cupholder? It'll melt my ice.
hpoe 5y ago
My situtation is slightly different than the Google one, but I've already resolved if my employer makes me come back into the office with a full-time commute, I'm going to start looking for a different job right away.
- ckdarby 5y ago
  I think a lot of employees are in this situation but aren't going to say this because they don't want to lose their job or have it held against them and be managed out of the company before they're told they need to come into the office.
- Jiejeing 5y ago
  Same, there are plenty of competitive offers, and if I cannot upgrade my lifestyle (no commute, house instead of studio, etc) with my current employer, so be it.
sriram_sun 5y ago
GOOG folks, FB is recruiting stressing on "remote". Call a recruiter today!
- elite_hackers3 5y ago
  But then you’d have to work for Facebook… cringe
  - sriram_sun 5y ago
    Quality of life improvement when you work remote is several fold higher. You have to experience it. I've been working remote (consulting) for about 4 years now. My wife has done it about 1/2 her career. We live in sunny SoCal (expensive, but very tolerable when you don't have to get on the freeways). Take care of No. 1 first. That is you. GOOG folks, please don't cringe at FB. There is no difference.
    - CydeWeys 5y ago
      Pretty much everyone has experienced what WFH is like a year plus into the pandemic. Those of us who want to go back to the office have experienced WFH, and our quality of life is lower with WFH. It's no longer true that people who say they don't like WFH would change their mind if only they'd experienced it.
      - mLuby 5y ago
        Nobody has been experiencing normal remote work during the pandemic. Normal remote work lets you go out and do fun stuff with friends after hours (which you have more of with no commute), spend more time with your kids (who have been at school for most of the day), or even explore other cities or countries (if you have that kind of remote arrangement). All the pandemic has shown us is basically all knowledge work can be done remotely, and most sales work too.
        oblio 5y ago
        > Normal remote work lets you go out and do fun stuff with friends after hours (which you have more of with no commute), spend more time with your kids (who have been at school for most of the day), or even explore other cities or countries (if you have that kind of remote arrangement). Some people enjoy socializing at work. > All the pandemic has shown us is basically all knowledge work can be done remotely, and most sales work too. For sales, can be done, but can it win over the face to face sales?
MattGaiser 5y ago
Should have tried chilled cupholders.
- coolspot 5y ago
  Funny you say that - my Audi has both. Like couldn’t decide which one to implement, so they made both.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    My car put the cupholders in front of the center console air vents, so they are heated in winter, and cooled in summer. But any spills end up on the radio/nav.
lhorie 5y ago
There was a blog post posted here recently from someone who saw Google as a "family" and drank a lot of koolaid, as well as stories of high levels of entitlement. I wonder if there's a similar phenomenon going on where people assume that companies pampering them is a given and that they can get anything they want by complaining enough. What they might find instead is the shock that "grass is greener on the other side" was a lie all along.
- kyle-rb 5y ago
  What grass though? This subset of employees seem to value working remotely above free food or massages or whatever other in-office perks. Work-from-home as a perk has a negative cost, so it's not crazy to think that companies might start offering it.
  - ryan_j_naughton 5y ago
    >Work-from-home as a perk has a negative cost Negative cost but also negative revenue / productivity loss if not done properly. Most data appears to show the hybrid model is the best for productivity. WFH several days a week, enabling focus and limiting distractions. Work from the office a couple days a week to enable coordination, connection, innovation, and alignment. This forced experiment in 100% WFH was clearly bad for productivity. The reason tech companies provided so many perks in the past wasn't simply as a recruitment technique. A lot of it was to create an environment where workers worked longer hours and thus the firm got more productivity out of each worker. The cost-benefit analysis clearly supported that before. A caterer's salary is far lower than an engineer's.
    - d0mine 5y ago
      > This forced experiment in 100% WFH was clearly bad for productivity. Could you link to some data that demonstrates that? > A lot of it was to create an environment where workers worked longer hours and thus the firm got more productivity out of each worker. "longer hours" "more productivity" is obviously false for the extremes. It is unclear what is the threshold when a programmer starts to introduce more issues than they fix. It is hard to measure productivity for a programmer (e.g., what might be productive short-term may be counter-productive long-term).
giantg2 5y ago
Probably. Its the same as people saying they'll move to Canada if so and so becomes president. A few people do, but the vast majority don't.
sam0x17 5y ago
While technically correct, I think you are dramatically overestimating the difficulty ex-googlers have in getting a new job.
- theflyinghorse 5y ago
  A new job that carries same prestige and benefits?
  - adkadskhj 5y ago
    Depends on how highly they value WFH. Another job might have higher "benefits". It's all relative to the persons desires.
  - djrogers 5y ago
    I think you're greatly overestimating the prestige of working at Google, or the value of said prestige.
    - sam0x17 5y ago
      If you know how to leverage your experience you can literally walk in as the CTO of most small startups if you are an ex-googler and don't act like a drone.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
        CTO of most small startups don't get paid as well as a typical moderately experienced Google engineer. And the job is a lot harder and higher stakes (which is something that some people prefer and others do not).
      - sam0x17 5y ago
        The top tier of these get paid _higher_ than googlers
      - ryandrake 5y ago
        As someone who has worked at multiple FAANG companies, I think that is a total exaggeration. What on earth does being Engineer #56112 at Google have to do with someone's ability to be a CTO? We’re talking entirely different skill sets. What does "don't act like a drone" mean? Show me one start-up that will simply let me "walk in as the CTO". Come on!
Foobar8568 5y ago
If I had a dollar each time someone said they wanted to leave badly only to be still in the same company/position 1 or 2 years later....
- carlmr 5y ago
  The question is always why someone is not perfectly happy with a workplace, and what alternatives they have available. You may work in a large bureaucratic corporation, want to work somewhere more dynamic, but you also have adjusted to the large corp salary. You may work at a cool startup, but wish for more time for your family, however the jobs offering a better work life balance are uninspiring. Add to that it takes effort to leave, and less effort to stay, and you have a lot of people "choosing" to stay.
  - microtherion 5y ago
    Yes, employers have inertia on their side. But for precisely that reason, sometimes mild irritants end up having disproportionate effects in getting people to leave in a "The Elves Leave Middle Earth" moment.
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  I said this about Google. And I left. No $ for you, at least for this case.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Many, perhaps most, people have some degree of gripe-age with their jobs. Many also have enough experience to realize that the grass isn't always greener and the devil you know may be preferable.
hknd 5y ago
I really want a heated cupholder now - how did I never hear for this before. This is a gamechanger.
brightball 5y ago
I've learned to be a fan of the expression, "Put your money where your mouth is" for exactly that reason (also, "follow the money" for similar reasons).
jartelt 5y ago
Also, if you are google employee who already moved away from the bay area, it may actually be easier to switch jobs (to a full remote option) than it is to move back to the bay area on September 1. Many of the employees that are angry have already left, and have been working remote for 6+ months. The hard part of moving is already done. If anything, staying with google would be the more difficult choice since they need to move back!
lamontcg 5y ago
I love the short term thinking here. They won't immediately abandon ship once we force them back to the salt mines, so there's no problem. Even if they come back if the resent the company for economically forcing them back that isn't a good situation for morale or productivity or retention.
horsemans 5y ago
"What people say they will do when there's no cost associated with an action and what people will actually do once a cost IS associated with the same action are frequently 2 different things." This statement makes it sound like you think that Google employees are unable to attach a cost to leaving the company until they actually commit the act. Am I misunderstanding? Because that's obviously not true.
UncleMeat 5y ago
I'd wager there are two populations. There are people who prefer WFH but didn't move. And there are people who moved. I can't return to the office. It is too late. I moved to be closer to my family. The job doesn't outweigh that. If I can't work remotely, I'm leaving in September. My boss and my director both know this.
falcolas 5y ago
> the percentage of people who responded positively was significantly higher than the percentage of people who ultimately chose to pay for the option in actual sales I'm guessing it's (at least partially) because they weren't offered a'la carte, but instead bundled with the "premium" interior package only offered in the most expensive trim. This bundling is the only way I've ever gotten the option of heated/chilled cupholders (which are awesome, by the way).
croutonwagon 5y ago
Google workers probably do have other options. Maybe not as financially lucritive but they should be able to find work. I have had people threaten to quit as we transition back to the office. These are tier 1 support people. I dont expect Ill have any no-call no-shows monday though. We also have people that have straight up MOVED to other cities (or in one case, refused to move to our city despite it being a condition of employment). I'm curious how those will play out.

AlgorithmicTime 5y ago

WTF do I want a heated cupholder? It'll melt my ice.

hpoe 5y ago

My situtation is slightly different than the Google one, but I've already resolved if my employer makes me come back into the office with a full-time commute, I'm going to start looking for a different job right away.

ckdarby 5y ago
I think a lot of employees are in this situation but aren't going to say this because they don't want to lose their job or have it held against them and be managed out of the company before they're told they need to come into the office.
Jiejeing 5y ago
Same, there are plenty of competitive offers, and if I cannot upgrade my lifestyle (no commute, house instead of studio, etc) with my current employer, so be it.

sriram_sun 5y ago

GOOG folks, FB is recruiting stressing on "remote". Call a recruiter today!

elite_hackers3 5y ago
But then you’d have to work for Facebook… cringe
- sriram_sun 5y ago
  Quality of life improvement when you work remote is several fold higher. You have to experience it. I've been working remote (consulting) for about 4 years now. My wife has done it about 1/2 her career. We live in sunny SoCal (expensive, but very tolerable when you don't have to get on the freeways). Take care of No. 1 first. That is you. GOOG folks, please don't cringe at FB. There is no difference.
  - CydeWeys 5y ago
    Pretty much everyone has experienced what WFH is like a year plus into the pandemic. Those of us who want to go back to the office have experienced WFH, and our quality of life is lower with WFH. It's no longer true that people who say they don't like WFH would change their mind if only they'd experienced it.
    - mLuby 5y ago
      Nobody has been experiencing normal remote work during the pandemic. Normal remote work lets you go out and do fun stuff with friends after hours (which you have more of with no commute), spend more time with your kids (who have been at school for most of the day), or even explore other cities or countries (if you have that kind of remote arrangement). All the pandemic has shown us is basically all knowledge work can be done remotely, and most sales work too.
      - oblio 5y ago
        > Normal remote work lets you go out and do fun stuff with friends after hours (which you have more of with no commute), spend more time with your kids (who have been at school for most of the day), or even explore other cities or countries (if you have that kind of remote arrangement). Some people enjoy socializing at work. > All the pandemic has shown us is basically all knowledge work can be done remotely, and most sales work too. For sales, can be done, but can it win over the face to face sales?

MattGaiser 5y ago

Should have tried chilled cupholders.

coolspot 5y ago
Funny you say that - my Audi has both. Like couldn’t decide which one to implement, so they made both.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  My car put the cupholders in front of the center console air vents, so they are heated in winter, and cooled in summer. But any spills end up on the radio/nav.

lhorie 5y ago

There was a blog post posted here recently from someone who saw Google as a "family" and drank a lot of koolaid, as well as stories of high levels of entitlement. I wonder if there's a similar phenomenon going on where people assume that companies pampering them is a given and that they can get anything they want by complaining enough. What they might find instead is the shock that "grass is greener on the other side" was a lie all along.

kyle-rb 5y ago
What grass though? This subset of employees seem to value working remotely above free food or massages or whatever other in-office perks. Work-from-home as a perk has a negative cost, so it's not crazy to think that companies might start offering it.
- ryan_j_naughton 5y ago
  >Work-from-home as a perk has a negative cost Negative cost but also negative revenue / productivity loss if not done properly. Most data appears to show the hybrid model is the best for productivity. WFH several days a week, enabling focus and limiting distractions. Work from the office a couple days a week to enable coordination, connection, innovation, and alignment. This forced experiment in 100% WFH was clearly bad for productivity. The reason tech companies provided so many perks in the past wasn't simply as a recruitment technique. A lot of it was to create an environment where workers worked longer hours and thus the firm got more productivity out of each worker. The cost-benefit analysis clearly supported that before. A caterer's salary is far lower than an engineer's.
  - d0mine 5y ago
    > This forced experiment in 100% WFH was clearly bad for productivity. Could you link to some data that demonstrates that? > A lot of it was to create an environment where workers worked longer hours and thus the firm got more productivity out of each worker. "longer hours" "more productivity" is obviously false for the extremes. It is unclear what is the threshold when a programmer starts to introduce more issues than they fix. It is hard to measure productivity for a programmer (e.g., what might be productive short-term may be counter-productive long-term).

giantg2 5y ago

Probably. Its the same as people saying they'll move to Canada if so and so becomes president. A few people do, but the vast majority don't.

sam0x17 5y ago

While technically correct, I think you are dramatically overestimating the difficulty ex-googlers have in getting a new job.

theflyinghorse 5y ago
A new job that carries same prestige and benefits?
- adkadskhj 5y ago
  Depends on how highly they value WFH. Another job might have higher "benefits". It's all relative to the persons desires.
- djrogers 5y ago
  I think you're greatly overestimating the prestige of working at Google, or the value of said prestige.
  - sam0x17 5y ago
    If you know how to leverage your experience you can literally walk in as the CTO of most small startups if you are an ex-googler and don't act like a drone.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      CTO of most small startups don't get paid as well as a typical moderately experienced Google engineer. And the job is a lot harder and higher stakes (which is something that some people prefer and others do not).
    - sam0x17 5y ago
      The top tier of these get paid _higher_ than googlers
    - ryandrake 5y ago
      As someone who has worked at multiple FAANG companies, I think that is a total exaggeration. What on earth does being Engineer #56112 at Google have to do with someone's ability to be a CTO? We’re talking entirely different skill sets. What does "don't act like a drone" mean? Show me one start-up that will simply let me "walk in as the CTO". Come on!

Foobar8568 5y ago

If I had a dollar each time someone said they wanted to leave badly only to be still in the same company/position 1 or 2 years later....

carlmr 5y ago
The question is always why someone is not perfectly happy with a workplace, and what alternatives they have available. You may work in a large bureaucratic corporation, want to work somewhere more dynamic, but you also have adjusted to the large corp salary. You may work at a cool startup, but wish for more time for your family, however the jobs offering a better work life balance are uninspiring. Add to that it takes effort to leave, and less effort to stay, and you have a lot of people "choosing" to stay.
- microtherion 5y ago
  Yes, employers have inertia on their side. But for precisely that reason, sometimes mild irritants end up having disproportionate effects in getting people to leave in a "The Elves Leave Middle Earth" moment.
TomSwirly 5y ago
I said this about Google. And I left. No $ for you, at least for this case.
ghaff 5y ago
Many, perhaps most, people have some degree of gripe-age with their jobs. Many also have enough experience to realize that the grass isn't always greener and the devil you know may be preferable.

hknd 5y ago

I really want a heated cupholder now - how did I never hear for this before. This is a gamechanger.

brightball 5y ago

I've learned to be a fan of the expression, "Put your money where your mouth is" for exactly that reason (also, "follow the money" for similar reasons).

jartelt 5y ago

Also, if you are google employee who already moved away from the bay area, it may actually be easier to switch jobs (to a full remote option) than it is to move back to the bay area on September 1. Many of the employees that are angry have already left, and have been working remote for 6+ months. The hard part of moving is already done. If anything, staying with google would be the more difficult choice since they need to move back!

lamontcg 5y ago

I love the short term thinking here. They won't immediately abandon ship once we force them back to the salt mines, so there's no problem. Even if they come back if the resent the company for economically forcing them back that isn't a good situation for morale or productivity or retention.

horsemans 5y ago

"What people say they will do when there's no cost associated with an action and what people will actually do once a cost IS associated with the same action are frequently 2 different things." This statement makes it sound like you think that Google employees are unable to attach a cost to leaving the company until they actually commit the act. Am I misunderstanding? Because that's obviously not true.

UncleMeat 5y ago

I'd wager there are two populations. There are people who prefer WFH but didn't move. And there are people who moved. I can't return to the office. It is too late. I moved to be closer to my family. The job doesn't outweigh that. If I can't work remotely, I'm leaving in September. My boss and my director both know this.

falcolas 5y ago

> the percentage of people who responded positively was significantly higher than the percentage of people who ultimately chose to pay for the option in actual sales I'm guessing it's (at least partially) because they weren't offered a'la carte, but instead bundled with the "premium" interior package only offered in the most expensive trim. This bundling is the only way I've ever gotten the option of heated/chilled cupholders (which are awesome, by the way).

croutonwagon 5y ago

Google workers probably do have other options. Maybe not as financially lucritive but they should be able to find work. I have had people threaten to quit as we transition back to the office. These are tier 1 support people. I dont expect Ill have any no-call no-shows monday though. We also have people that have straight up MOVED to other cities (or in one case, refused to move to our city despite it being a condition of employment). I'm curious how those will play out.