5 ms·

Can anyone speak to what power this gives them in the rust foundation, other than just good will and the dependence on funding?

benatkin 5y ago
Too much. It goads people in the Rust community to pretend to think Facebook is well-meaning company. I'm going to continue thinking Facebook doesn't care about people, even when they're being killed by the thousands, and I'm more comfortable doing that as someone who uses Vue and Python and not Rust. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-45449938 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-45449938 Edit: I realized I'm slowly getting into Deno, which is based on Rust, so I should probably just lean into Rust.
- door101 5y ago
  Facebook is one of the sponsors of the Python Software Foundation too. https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/ https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/
  - benatkin 5y ago
    Somehow they've managed to stay out of the news, while Rust has been endorsing BigCo's regularly for a while now...
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      What does it mean for Rust to be endorsing BigCos?
      - dangerbird2 5y ago
        Not much other than reflecting the reality that BigCos are using rust in production, and as a result, have a vested interest in the project's governance. This is true for pretty much every popular language of software with an open governance model.
      - DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
        It means any Rust dev will be even less likely to open their mouth when Facebook does some horrible shit than what they already are.
    - lacker 5y ago
      The Rust Foundation is really new, it just started in February. That's probably why you've been hearing a lot of news about corporate Rust sponsorships recently, or if not "a lot" then more than you've heard about, say, corporate Python sponsorships.
    - pdpi 5y ago
      It’s more the other way around — big cos are endorsing Rust and joining the nascent foundation. It’s perfectly reasonable for a three month old foundation for a popular new language to be in the news quite a bit, and for its sponsors to enjoy the attention that goes with it
- xiphias2 5y ago
  https://www.python.org/sponsors/application/ https://www.python.org/sponsors/application/ Meet with the PSF Board of Directors Opportunity to meet with the PSF Board of Directors to discuss a topic of your choosing. The health and sustainability of our community is important to many organizations and we want to make sure community needs are heard and noted. For visionary sponsors: Meet with the Python Steering Council Opportunity to meet with the Steering Council to discuss technical aspects of Python or feedback you may have, or just a Q&A with the Steering Council. The health and sustainability of Python is critical to many organizations and we want to make sure community needs are heard and noted. https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/ https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/
  - qlfail 5y ago
    I'm sure the "visionary" sponsors represent "community" needs perfectly! Translation: "Buy yourself into an obedient hiring pool controlled by the Steering Council."
- fsociety 5y ago
  Facebook contributes a ton to the Linux and Python communities as well, by this logic you shouldn’t use either. Thinking that infrastructure engineers have direct influence over the product is wrong. Instead they work at Facebook because it is a good means to being paid lots of money to contribute to open source. Btw, getting out of us vs. them mentality will form a healthier community and result in more positive changes. You can call Facebook on shit without generalizing against the employees who work there.
  - DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
    > You can call Facebook on shit without generalizing against the employees who work there. I disagree. It's this behavior and lack of disinfectant (sunlight) that allows companies to get away with the amount of crimes against humanity they do. Saying "Tech" isn't political, or "I'm just an engineer somebody else is in charge" is how horror happens.
    - fsociety 5y ago
      I never said "Tech" isn't political, or that "I'm just an engineer somebody else is in charge". Both are true and we best take time to think of the moral implications of our work. What I am saying, is that you should not generalize people just because they worked or currently work at a big tech company. This is as much a cognitive bias as thinking a company like Facebook only does good. You have no clue why they work there, what they work on, or who they are.
- tjpnz 5y ago
  >It goads people in the Rust community to pretend to think Facebook is well-meaning company. As someone who already views the Facebook brand as a toxic waste dump this won't do anything to change my mind. If they want to sponsor Rust more power to them. It's not as if it's going to change anything for the average user.
rectang 5y ago
The two things I generally think about with regards to sponsor influence on software foundations are: 1. If the sponsor is a software vendor, does the funding enable them to secure a marketplace advantage over competing vendors? For example do they gain a majority on a steering committee, or fund a critical mass of foundation-employed developers? 2. Does the funding enable the sponsor to unduly influence an official or de facto standard which impacts a marketplace outside of software? (For example, web protocols: see https://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html#why-free https://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html#why-free ) I think you've properly identified "good will and the dependence on funding" as sources of potential undue influence. The structure of the foundation is supposed to guard against that. But more to the point, it's hard to imagine how Facebook would be able to leverage undue influence over the Rust Foundation: they aren't competing against Rust vendors, and it's unclear what public standards could be subverted via the Rust Foundation in a way which could benefit Facebook.
mjw1007 5y ago
In the past, Rust release announcements have come with statements like this: « The Rust Core Team believes that tech is and always will be political, and we encourage everyone take the time today to learn about [US-centered political issue of the day] » I suppose this makes it less likely that Facebook finds themselves being the issue of the day.

benatkin 5y ago

Too much. It goads people in the Rust community to pretend to think Facebook is well-meaning company. I'm going to continue thinking Facebook doesn't care about people, even when they're being killed by the thousands, and I'm more comfortable doing that as someone who uses Vue and Python and not Rust. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-45449938 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-45449938 Edit: I realized I'm slowly getting into Deno, which is based on Rust, so I should probably just lean into Rust.

door101 5y ago
Facebook is one of the sponsors of the Python Software Foundation too. https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/ https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/
- benatkin 5y ago
  Somehow they've managed to stay out of the news, while Rust has been endorsing BigCo's regularly for a while now...
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    What does it mean for Rust to be endorsing BigCos?
    - dangerbird2 5y ago
      Not much other than reflecting the reality that BigCos are using rust in production, and as a result, have a vested interest in the project's governance. This is true for pretty much every popular language of software with an open governance model.
    - DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
      It means any Rust dev will be even less likely to open their mouth when Facebook does some horrible shit than what they already are.
  - lacker 5y ago
    The Rust Foundation is really new, it just started in February. That's probably why you've been hearing a lot of news about corporate Rust sponsorships recently, or if not "a lot" then more than you've heard about, say, corporate Python sponsorships.
  - pdpi 5y ago
    It’s more the other way around — big cos are endorsing Rust and joining the nascent foundation. It’s perfectly reasonable for a three month old foundation for a popular new language to be in the news quite a bit, and for its sponsors to enjoy the attention that goes with it
xiphias2 5y ago
https://www.python.org/sponsors/application/ https://www.python.org/sponsors/application/ Meet with the PSF Board of Directors Opportunity to meet with the PSF Board of Directors to discuss a topic of your choosing. The health and sustainability of our community is important to many organizations and we want to make sure community needs are heard and noted. For visionary sponsors: Meet with the Python Steering Council Opportunity to meet with the Steering Council to discuss technical aspects of Python or feedback you may have, or just a Q&A with the Steering Council. The health and sustainability of Python is critical to many organizations and we want to make sure community needs are heard and noted. https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/ https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/
- qlfail 5y ago
  I'm sure the "visionary" sponsors represent "community" needs perfectly! Translation: "Buy yourself into an obedient hiring pool controlled by the Steering Council."
fsociety 5y ago
Facebook contributes a ton to the Linux and Python communities as well, by this logic you shouldn’t use either. Thinking that infrastructure engineers have direct influence over the product is wrong. Instead they work at Facebook because it is a good means to being paid lots of money to contribute to open source. Btw, getting out of us vs. them mentality will form a healthier community and result in more positive changes. You can call Facebook on shit without generalizing against the employees who work there.
- DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
  > You can call Facebook on shit without generalizing against the employees who work there. I disagree. It's this behavior and lack of disinfectant (sunlight) that allows companies to get away with the amount of crimes against humanity they do. Saying "Tech" isn't political, or "I'm just an engineer somebody else is in charge" is how horror happens.
  - fsociety 5y ago
    I never said "Tech" isn't political, or that "I'm just an engineer somebody else is in charge". Both are true and we best take time to think of the moral implications of our work. What I am saying, is that you should not generalize people just because they worked or currently work at a big tech company. This is as much a cognitive bias as thinking a company like Facebook only does good. You have no clue why they work there, what they work on, or who they are.
tjpnz 5y ago
>It goads people in the Rust community to pretend to think Facebook is well-meaning company. As someone who already views the Facebook brand as a toxic waste dump this won't do anything to change my mind. If they want to sponsor Rust more power to them. It's not as if it's going to change anything for the average user.

rectang 5y ago

The two things I generally think about with regards to sponsor influence on software foundations are: 1. If the sponsor is a software vendor, does the funding enable them to secure a marketplace advantage over competing vendors? For example do they gain a majority on a steering committee, or fund a critical mass of foundation-employed developers? 2. Does the funding enable the sponsor to unduly influence an official or de facto standard which impacts a marketplace outside of software? (For example, web protocols: see https://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html#why-free https://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html#why-free ) I think you've properly identified "good will and the dependence on funding" as sources of potential undue influence. The structure of the foundation is supposed to guard against that. But more to the point, it's hard to imagine how Facebook would be able to leverage undue influence over the Rust Foundation: they aren't competing against Rust vendors, and it's unclear what public standards could be subverted via the Rust Foundation in a way which could benefit Facebook.

mjw1007 5y ago

In the past, Rust release announcements have come with statements like this: « The Rust Core Team believes that tech is and always will be political, and we encourage everyone take the time today to learn about [US-centered political issue of the day] » I suppose this makes it less likely that Facebook finds themselves being the issue of the day.