7 ms·

Well, that makes me a tad less enthusiastic about Rust.

by nanna 6y ago

xiphias2 6y ago
It had to happen, the only way to make a programming language successful is to have it backed by most big tech companies.
- wallacoloo 6y ago
  They can contribute without having any special status. Rust already has a robust RFC process and good technical leadership. My worry is that these things weaken and rust very gradually becomes your typical corporate software product where more and more independent features are just bolted on without care to any larger vision. That won’t happen if FB, etc keep contributing as ordinary contributors. But it could happen if they’re elevated to a position of leadership.
  - steveklabnik 6y ago
    Note that the Foundation doesn't have any impact on the RFC process or the project's structure or governance, so while that worry may exist, this announcement isn't a path towards doing that.
- goodpoint 6y ago
  Python, C, C++, Perl, Bash were pretty successful before the modern FAANG culture. Same for projects other than programming languages, e.g. Linux. I don't feel comfortable with corporate-driven FOSS. I'll stick with community languages.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    As for C, sure, AT&T is so much better than FAANG. C++ was also heavyly corporate. Python won over Ruby because of FAANG support (I personally like Ruby more, but as it's not supported by big companies, it remained behind in deep learning for example). Also NVIDIA has great Python support, which is really important for high performance software development. As for Perl, I just look at it as a stepping stone for more modern scripting languages.
    - goodpoint 6y ago
      A lot of companies also contributed to Linux, but that's not the issue. The concern comes from having a *small* number of companies with a notoriously aggressive behavior controlling a project. Google is especially known for using products as weapons against competitors and drop them suddenly after a while.
      - xiphias2 6y ago
        Sure tying Rust development cycle to Azure+VS code, AWS or GCP would be quite bad (run rust-analyzer on Azure for example). At least Facebook doesn't have this kind of infrastructure yet.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  I wouldn’t say so. A language like Haskell is successful, even if their motto is “avoid success at all costs.” Books have been written about the language, and the ecosystem and community are thriving. Even still, few corporate sponsors exist.
brink 6y ago
Starting with the next version; when you compile, you will see a facebook ad.
- benatkin 6y ago
  "rustc" is the facebook ad. They've linked themselves to the name.
ryan93 6y ago
I doubt Zuckerberg will be personally involved. It will be all engineers.
- geodel 6y ago
  Exactly right. After all engineers are just working for salary, eating free meals, cashing their RSUs. They have no clue or hand in how Facebook makes money today. Moreover they promise to learn about FB's business and write a strongly worded letter on "Why I left Facebook" when leaving after vesting most of company stocks
serverholic 6y ago
Why? Facebook engineering is highly regarded.
- adenozine 6y ago
  Perhaps in capability, not so much by reputation or social utility.
  - brian_herman 6y ago
    True but if someone would pay you 200k to develop rust things wouldn’t you say yes?
    - vaylian 6y ago
      I would not say yes. You can't buy ethics.
    - adenozine 6y ago
      Sure! I was just adding context to the other comment with my own. I've no qualms with whomever spending money on whatever language they choose. Unless it's VB. Yuck.
  - door101 6y ago
    If the Rust foundation only took money from morally upright tech companies, it would be bankrupt.
    - adenozine 6y ago
      I agree, I was only meaning to add context to that other comment.
Isn0gud 6y ago
Why? On the tech side, engineers at facebook have contributed some great open source work.
- capableweb 6y ago
  Just like how every environmentalist love the oil and gas companies because they are offsetting their carbon emissions
  - Isn0gud 6y ago
    How does this comparison make any sense? I'd definitely prefer oil and gas companies that offset carbon emissions over oil and gas companies that don't. (Not going into how much pr that is over how much it's actually worth anything)
amelius 6y ago
Rust should include in their license: "The Software/Language shall be used for Good, not Evil" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not_Evil%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not...
- capableweb 6y ago
  Since that line could be interpreted as just "The Software/Language shall be used for Good", any software that is not explicitly "Good" would be forbidden to use Rust, effectively making Rust useless in 90% of companies.
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  Core team member here. There's no desire to change the license. Also, practically, we do not have a CLA, and have had just under six thousand distinct contributors. We cannot unilaterally change the license. This is a feature, not a bug.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Who decides what’s good and what’s evil? Real life isn’t kindergarten, world isn’t black and white. Even for things that most of people can agree are good, you’ll have negative externalities.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - amelius 6y ago
    It was just a suggestion without the details carved out. You could make it very explicit: X shall not be used for advertising purposes. In legalese, of course, so a judge knows what is meant.
    - justapassenger 6y ago
      Define advertising purpose. Rust affiliated organizations are advertising (for example conferences are being advertised). Is only serving ads or also using ads not allowed? Given that almost every single company in the world is using advertising then it becomes a hobbyist tool. With serving - how about if I have a page/app that includes ads served by third party (like most of the world does). Does it make it also off limits? Statements like that sound pretty cool, but ignore real world complexity.
mbStavola 6y ago
This is what adoption and maturity looks like. As the language starts to see serious use, you see companies start to consider the language's future and direction.
rectang 6y ago
The kinds of things that Facebook most often receives flak for would be difficult to pursue though the layer of indirection that is sponsoring a foundation dedicated to the Rust programming language. Similarly, since Facebook isn't a software vendor, the kinds of things that you might achieve by securing undue influence within the Rust Foundation don't really benefit them.
- brabel 6y ago
  But what's in it for Facebook then? They're spending real money, there's got to be something for them to benefit from?
  - benatkin 6y ago
    I think it's help with their image.
  - nicolashahn 6y ago
    There are a lot of teams within Facebook that use Rust, and a lot of things that could be improved with Rust that would benefit Facebook as well as everyone else. (I work at Facebook on a team that uses Rust)
  - sethhochberg 6y ago
    FB are large enough that they do a ton of their own very low level work - up to and including things like their own bespoke datacenter switches and SDN platform, stuff which is almost wholly distinct from what their core product is. (https://engineering.fb.com/2019/03/14/data-center-engineering/f16-minipack/ https://engineering.fb.com/2019/03/14/data-center-engineerin...) It seems entirely possible that, even putting aside the PR, they're concerned about making sure a robust modern systems language stays around/thvives so that they have a robust modern systems language to use.
    - nanna 6y ago
      Ok, fair enough.
  - 6y ago
steveklabnik 6y ago
Facebook has been contributing to the Rust ecosystem for a long time; they've been sponsoring Rust conferences for the past few years, they've had employees helping do work as part of the teams. EDIT: oh, they've also published another post detailing their history with Rust. Lots of very interesting things in here! https://engineering.fb.com/2021/04/29/developer-tools/rust/ https://engineering.fb.com/2021/04/29/developer-tools/rust/
morrbo 6y ago
It makes me the opposite. I hate the idea of Facebook and the damage it's fine, and I don't have an account. That being said Facebook has done some absolutely amazing open source projects (rocksdb, open hardware) and papers detailing the exact technology they use (seaweedfs is based on a research paper they published) so I'm sure a lot of cool tech will come from their adoption
meragrin_ 6y ago
Why? Facebook is not the sole large corporation in the foundation. Microsoft, Google, and Amazon are all founding platinum members.

Well, that makes me a tad less enthusiastic about Rust.

by nanna 6y ago

Well, that makes me a tad less enthusiastic about Rust.

It had to happen, the only way to make a programming language successful is to have it backed by most big tech companies.

wallacoloo 6y ago
They can contribute without having any special status. Rust already has a robust RFC process and good technical leadership. My worry is that these things weaken and rust very gradually becomes your typical corporate software product where more and more independent features are just bolted on without care to any larger vision. That won’t happen if FB, etc keep contributing as ordinary contributors. But it could happen if they’re elevated to a position of leadership.
- steveklabnik 6y ago
  Note that the Foundation doesn't have any impact on the RFC process or the project's structure or governance, so while that worry may exist, this announcement isn't a path towards doing that.
goodpoint 6y ago
Python, C, C++, Perl, Bash were pretty successful before the modern FAANG culture. Same for projects other than programming languages, e.g. Linux. I don't feel comfortable with corporate-driven FOSS. I'll stick with community languages.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  As for C, sure, AT&T is so much better than FAANG. C++ was also heavyly corporate. Python won over Ruby because of FAANG support (I personally like Ruby more, but as it's not supported by big companies, it remained behind in deep learning for example). Also NVIDIA has great Python support, which is really important for high performance software development. As for Perl, I just look at it as a stepping stone for more modern scripting languages.
  - goodpoint 6y ago
    A lot of companies also contributed to Linux, but that's not the issue. The concern comes from having a *small* number of companies with a notoriously aggressive behavior controlling a project. Google is especially known for using products as weapons against competitors and drop them suddenly after a while.
    - xiphias2 6y ago
      Sure tying Rust development cycle to Azure+VS code, AWS or GCP would be quite bad (run rust-analyzer on Azure for example). At least Facebook doesn't have this kind of infrastructure yet.
ironmagma 6y ago
I wouldn’t say so. A language like Haskell is successful, even if their motto is “avoid success at all costs.” Books have been written about the language, and the ecosystem and community are thriving. Even still, few corporate sponsors exist.

brink 6y ago

Starting with the next version; when you compile, you will see a facebook ad.

benatkin 6y ago
"rustc" is the facebook ad. They've linked themselves to the name.

ryan93 6y ago

I doubt Zuckerberg will be personally involved. It will be all engineers.

geodel 6y ago
Exactly right. After all engineers are just working for salary, eating free meals, cashing their RSUs. They have no clue or hand in how Facebook makes money today. Moreover they promise to learn about FB's business and write a strongly worded letter on "Why I left Facebook" when leaving after vesting most of company stocks

serverholic 6y ago

Why? Facebook engineering is highly regarded.

adenozine 6y ago
Perhaps in capability, not so much by reputation or social utility.
- brian_herman 6y ago
  True but if someone would pay you 200k to develop rust things wouldn’t you say yes?
  - vaylian 6y ago
    I would not say yes. You can't buy ethics.
  - adenozine 6y ago
    Sure! I was just adding context to the other comment with my own. I've no qualms with whomever spending money on whatever language they choose. Unless it's VB. Yuck.
- door101 6y ago
  If the Rust foundation only took money from morally upright tech companies, it would be bankrupt.
  - adenozine 6y ago
    I agree, I was only meaning to add context to that other comment.

Isn0gud 6y ago

Why? On the tech side, engineers at facebook have contributed some great open source work.

capableweb 6y ago
Just like how every environmentalist love the oil and gas companies because they are offsetting their carbon emissions
- Isn0gud 6y ago
  How does this comparison make any sense? I'd definitely prefer oil and gas companies that offset carbon emissions over oil and gas companies that don't. (Not going into how much pr that is over how much it's actually worth anything)

amelius 6y ago

Rust should include in their license: "The Software/Language shall be used for Good, not Evil" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not_Evil%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Crockford#%22Good,_not...

capableweb 6y ago
Since that line could be interpreted as just "The Software/Language shall be used for Good", any software that is not explicitly "Good" would be forbidden to use Rust, effectively making Rust useless in 90% of companies.
steveklabnik 6y ago
Core team member here. There's no desire to change the license. Also, practically, we do not have a CLA, and have had just under six thousand distinct contributors. We cannot unilaterally change the license. This is a feature, not a bug.
justapassenger 6y ago
Who decides what’s good and what’s evil? Real life isn’t kindergarten, world isn’t black and white. Even for things that most of people can agree are good, you’ll have negative externalities.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- amelius 6y ago
  It was just a suggestion without the details carved out. You could make it very explicit: X shall not be used for advertising purposes. In legalese, of course, so a judge knows what is meant.
  - justapassenger 6y ago
    Define advertising purpose. Rust affiliated organizations are advertising (for example conferences are being advertised). Is only serving ads or also using ads not allowed? Given that almost every single company in the world is using advertising then it becomes a hobbyist tool. With serving - how about if I have a page/app that includes ads served by third party (like most of the world does). Does it make it also off limits? Statements like that sound pretty cool, but ignore real world complexity.

mbStavola 6y ago

This is what adoption and maturity looks like. As the language starts to see serious use, you see companies start to consider the language's future and direction.

rectang 6y ago

The kinds of things that Facebook most often receives flak for would be difficult to pursue though the layer of indirection that is sponsoring a foundation dedicated to the Rust programming language. Similarly, since Facebook isn't a software vendor, the kinds of things that you might achieve by securing undue influence within the Rust Foundation don't really benefit them.

brabel 6y ago
But what's in it for Facebook then? They're spending real money, there's got to be something for them to benefit from?
- benatkin 6y ago
  I think it's help with their image.
- nicolashahn 6y ago
  There are a lot of teams within Facebook that use Rust, and a lot of things that could be improved with Rust that would benefit Facebook as well as everyone else. (I work at Facebook on a team that uses Rust)
- sethhochberg 6y ago
  FB are large enough that they do a ton of their own very low level work - up to and including things like their own bespoke datacenter switches and SDN platform, stuff which is almost wholly distinct from what their core product is. (https://engineering.fb.com/2019/03/14/data-center-engineering/f16-minipack/ https://engineering.fb.com/2019/03/14/data-center-engineerin...) It seems entirely possible that, even putting aside the PR, they're concerned about making sure a robust modern systems language stays around/thvives so that they have a robust modern systems language to use.
  - nanna 6y ago
    Ok, fair enough.
- 6y ago

steveklabnik 6y ago

Facebook has been contributing to the Rust ecosystem for a long time; they've been sponsoring Rust conferences for the past few years, they've had employees helping do work as part of the teams. EDIT: oh, they've also published another post detailing their history with Rust. Lots of very interesting things in here! https://engineering.fb.com/2021/04/29/developer-tools/rust/ https://engineering.fb.com/2021/04/29/developer-tools/rust/

morrbo 6y ago

It makes me the opposite. I hate the idea of Facebook and the damage it's fine, and I don't have an account. That being said Facebook has done some absolutely amazing open source projects (rocksdb, open hardware) and papers detailing the exact technology they use (seaweedfs is based on a research paper they published) so I'm sure a lot of cool tech will come from their adoption

meragrin_ 6y ago

Why? Facebook is not the sole large corporation in the foundation. Microsoft, Google, and Amazon are all founding platinum members.