7 ms·

> it points to a theory that societal norms serve to re-enforce the expectation of taking jobs in lower paying fields on women versus men. That’s one theory.

> it points to a theory that societal norms serve to re-enforce the expectation of taking jobs in lower paying fields on women versus men. That’s one theory. Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions.

Loughla 6y ago
Obviously that is the case. It would be startling if adults chose careers in exactly even proportions, regardless of their gender, age, ethnicity, or whatever. BUT, based on human developmental theory and how people make decisions, no choice is truly random. Therefore, there must be a reason for those choices. Your theory offers no explanation other than random chance, from what I can tell. Identifying inputs and outcomes is sort of the point of solving problems.
- giantg2 6y ago
  I think the main issue was with the "expectation" part. It carries an insinuation of being forced, or socially shunned, etc. There are choices being made, and choices aren't random. I don't really see expectations that a woman take a lower paying job playing into that very much. I can see more pressure on the other side - like for the man to pay for everything on dates, support their family, etc, with the resulting less pressure on the other side allowing the choice of work that is fulfilling in other ways (societal benefit, fun, less stress, flexibility). Even these roles are choices. A man could choose not to pay for dates, be a stay at home dad, etc. When it come mate selection, there is generally more pressure on the male than the female.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    I'm assume you're male because you're coming at it from that perspective. Do you believe there is no pressure when you're one of the few women in an engineering course? There's a lot at play here, and focusing on your slice may prevent you from seeing the whole.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      I can see pressure if the woman (or any first-of) is one of the first in their role/job to do well and represent their subgroup. This of course implies that there is a stereotype to overcome, which I see as a very small minority sentiment today. I didn't notice any stereotyping related to women in my classes. Also, in my masters courses the gender mix was probably 60% male 40% female. There is a lot at play, and there is plenty of variation by location and other factors.
      - Loughla 6y ago
        And what you have done, I am willing to bet, is use your own individual experiences to draw conclusions for the wider world. My own personal experience is that this is almost never a good idea (see what I did there). This is not a values judgment, or meant to be hateful at all, really. This paragraph reads as if you are saying, "I've never seen it, so it doesn't exist."
        giantg2 6y ago
        And the same can be done in the other direction. Are you worried about some rare disease or catastrophe? We have to determine where the line is and if the current laws are somehow not adequate to protect people's rights. I'm not saying that issues do not exist (see my prior comment about very small minority). From what I've seen, including various statistics, it seems to me that gender discrimination is not common and the laws are already in place to deal with it.
creata 6y ago
> Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions. That's not a theory, that's just restating the question! Why is the distribution the way it is, and should we make efforts to change it?
- stickfigure 6y ago
  Maybe, but I still think there's an important point in there. We (society) do a lot of handwringing about CEO and engineering jobs, but these aren't even remotely the most gender-asymmetric careers out there. According to [1], "Locomotive engineers and operators" are 92.3 percent male. I'm willing to bet that if you can "fix" that problem - or even conclusively identify the cause - gender imbalance issues in other fields will be less contentious. [1] https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
  - hanselot 6y ago
    I have never in my entire life met a female plumber, yet somehow I doubt that's caused by the inherent patriarchal bias in the ****-fixing industry. Note: I have never even met a women that aspires to trying to be one.
  - someguydave 6y ago
    “fixing” that “problem” would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest. How do you propose to force them to change their desires?
    - edenhyacinth 6y ago
      That argument assumes women aren't interested in those roles, and that their disinterest is the only or primary thing that causes an imbalance. You have to know that isn't true, which makes this a great example of why people are frustrated about discussing anything 'political' in the workplace.
      - 6y ago
SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago
But then why do those careers earn less money? Why is it that it just so happens that every job that is more likely for women to work also is paid less?
- giantg2 6y ago
  Many of those jobs produce fewer tangible outputs, are government jobs, non-profit, or otherwise do not focus on maximizing profit. Positions like teachers, social workers, etc are seen as cost centers, not revenue centers. They are necessary jobs and perform valuable societal functions, but they are supported through other revenues which were not a direct product of their job. As for why one gender chooses those jobs more than others, there are a variety of factors. One of the leading ones is that some people are more likely to choose work that is meaningful over just a dollar amount. Studies show that isn't just based on gender, but also in the some minority groups.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  > Why is it that it just so happens that every job that is more likely for women to work also is paid less? I am quite confident this is not true, in the broad way you have stated it. There are many categories of jobs with a greater proportion of women, that pay higher than many categories of jobs with a greater proportion of men.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  I think mortality/danger is an interesting axis: https://www.statista.com/statistics/187078/occupational-injury-death-rate-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1995/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/187078/occupational-inju... If, by being a man, you are 10x more likely to die from your job, and you are 10x more likely to die younger, should society compensate for your fewer hours lived? If no, why would society decide to undervalue males?
  - rovolo 6y ago
    The question is why those careers earn less money. Your assertion is that the careers men choose are more dangerous, so those careers earn more. My question is, are dangerous careers well paid? Here are the totals for occupational deaths: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t03.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t03.htm ~25% for Transportation and material moving occupations ~20% for Construction ~10% for Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations ~1.5% for Business, Finance, Computers, Math, Engineering, and Legal

Loughla 6y ago

Obviously that is the case. It would be startling if adults chose careers in exactly even proportions, regardless of their gender, age, ethnicity, or whatever. BUT, based on human developmental theory and how people make decisions, no choice is truly random. Therefore, there must be a reason for those choices. Your theory offers no explanation other than random chance, from what I can tell. Identifying inputs and outcomes is sort of the point of solving problems.

giantg2 6y ago
I think the main issue was with the "expectation" part. It carries an insinuation of being forced, or socially shunned, etc. There are choices being made, and choices aren't random. I don't really see expectations that a woman take a lower paying job playing into that very much. I can see more pressure on the other side - like for the man to pay for everything on dates, support their family, etc, with the resulting less pressure on the other side allowing the choice of work that is fulfilling in other ways (societal benefit, fun, less stress, flexibility). Even these roles are choices. A man could choose not to pay for dates, be a stay at home dad, etc. When it come mate selection, there is generally more pressure on the male than the female.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I'm assume you're male because you're coming at it from that perspective. Do you believe there is no pressure when you're one of the few women in an engineering course? There's a lot at play here, and focusing on your slice may prevent you from seeing the whole.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    I can see pressure if the woman (or any first-of) is one of the first in their role/job to do well and represent their subgroup. This of course implies that there is a stereotype to overcome, which I see as a very small minority sentiment today. I didn't notice any stereotyping related to women in my classes. Also, in my masters courses the gender mix was probably 60% male 40% female. There is a lot at play, and there is plenty of variation by location and other factors.
    - Loughla 6y ago
      And what you have done, I am willing to bet, is use your own individual experiences to draw conclusions for the wider world. My own personal experience is that this is almost never a good idea (see what I did there). This is not a values judgment, or meant to be hateful at all, really. This paragraph reads as if you are saying, "I've never seen it, so it doesn't exist."
      - giantg2 6y ago
        And the same can be done in the other direction. Are you worried about some rare disease or catastrophe? We have to determine where the line is and if the current laws are somehow not adequate to protect people's rights. I'm not saying that issues do not exist (see my prior comment about very small minority). From what I've seen, including various statistics, it seems to me that gender discrimination is not common and the laws are already in place to deal with it.

creata 6y ago

> Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions. That's not a theory, that's just restating the question! Why is the distribution the way it is, and should we make efforts to change it?

stickfigure 6y ago
Maybe, but I still think there's an important point in there. We (society) do a lot of handwringing about CEO and engineering jobs, but these aren't even remotely the most gender-asymmetric careers out there. According to [1], "Locomotive engineers and operators" are 92.3 percent male. I'm willing to bet that if you can "fix" that problem - or even conclusively identify the cause - gender imbalance issues in other fields will be less contentious. [1] https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
- hanselot 6y ago
  I have never in my entire life met a female plumber, yet somehow I doubt that's caused by the inherent patriarchal bias in the ****-fixing industry. Note: I have never even met a women that aspires to trying to be one.
- someguydave 6y ago
  “fixing” that “problem” would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest. How do you propose to force them to change their desires?
  - edenhyacinth 6y ago
    That argument assumes women aren't interested in those roles, and that their disinterest is the only or primary thing that causes an imbalance. You have to know that isn't true, which makes this a great example of why people are frustrated about discussing anything 'political' in the workplace.
    - 6y ago

SamoyedFurFluff 6y ago

But then why do those careers earn less money? Why is it that it just so happens that every job that is more likely for women to work also is paid less?

giantg2 6y ago
Many of those jobs produce fewer tangible outputs, are government jobs, non-profit, or otherwise do not focus on maximizing profit. Positions like teachers, social workers, etc are seen as cost centers, not revenue centers. They are necessary jobs and perform valuable societal functions, but they are supported through other revenues which were not a direct product of their job. As for why one gender chooses those jobs more than others, there are a variety of factors. One of the leading ones is that some people are more likely to choose work that is meaningful over just a dollar amount. Studies show that isn't just based on gender, but also in the some minority groups.
jimbokun 6y ago
> Why is it that it just so happens that every job that is more likely for women to work also is paid less? I am quite confident this is not true, in the broad way you have stated it. There are many categories of jobs with a greater proportion of women, that pay higher than many categories of jobs with a greater proportion of men.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
I think mortality/danger is an interesting axis: https://www.statista.com/statistics/187078/occupational-injury-death-rate-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1995/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/187078/occupational-inju... If, by being a man, you are 10x more likely to die from your job, and you are 10x more likely to die younger, should society compensate for your fewer hours lived? If no, why would society decide to undervalue males?
- rovolo 6y ago
  The question is why those careers earn less money. Your assertion is that the careers men choose are more dangerous, so those careers earn more. My question is, are dangerous careers well paid? Here are the totals for occupational deaths: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t03.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t03.htm ~25% for Transportation and material moving occupations ~20% for Construction ~10% for Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations ~1.5% for Business, Finance, Computers, Math, Engineering, and Legal