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The linked article is not about the content moderation changes. Anyway, Paraphilias are strengthened through repeated exposure and association with pleasure. S

The linked article is not about the content moderation changes. Anyway, Paraphilias are strengthened through repeated exposure and association with pleasure. So if you're in the camp of not wanting to strengthen a pedophile's desire to prey on children, you also want to restrict the availability of such stimuli. The whole "provide them an outlet" idea is nonsense - human sexual attraction does not work that way.

roenxi 5y ago
I think this may literally be the same argument as the one for banning D&D for corrupting the minds of youth. I suspect most (nay, all?) paraphilics have the ability to differentiate between reality and a page of text - just like many of us have avoided going full Don Quixote after reading Lord of the Rings. Maybe they'll get addicted to reading. Society will not crumble, and no children will be harmed.
- ahelwer 5y ago
  It has nothing to do with differentiating reality from fantasy. It has to do with whether a given pleasure association is strengthened or weakened. Pedophiles seek out these stimuli because of a pre-existing attraction toward children in the real world.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    It is simpler than you think. If you're at a screen full of text and get a dose of dopamine or whatever, you're simply going to spend more time staring at screens of text. If your theory was true, we'd have seen historically massive upticks in violence from videogames. It is yet to materialise. This is an era of unusual peace.
    - ahelwer 5y ago
      Real-world violence is so far removed from its video game counterpart that there is no real comparison, as anyone who has been in any sort of fight understands. In contrast, pornography (visual or textual) is quite similar to its real-world counterpart.
      - Thiez 5y ago
        It is though? I'm thinking you and your partner(s) must either be very athletic, or you're watching some pretty tame porn.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - claudiawerner 5y ago
        >In contrast, pornography (visual or textual) is quite similar to its real-world counterpart. A cursory look around online erotic roleplayers, online stories, the manga/doujinshi sold in huge numbers every year in Japan at Comiket, or even the plots of mainstream porn will quickly disabuse you of this notion. I'm also not convinced on the 'no real comparison' for video games. I'm reminded of the fact that the US Army recruits first-person shooter players, and that video games can show a rise in aggression in lab settings, similar to real sports do. Even if they were all that different, you'd still have to specify in which specific ways, and the extent of those ways, the difference between the two entertainments is relevant to your argument.
    - versteegen 5y ago
      Please, let's not get distracted by videogame violence. We have seen historically massive upticks in child abuse material [1], caused by two inventions: the internet and smartphones with cameras, and there's a strong case made that it reflects an actual, large, increase in child sexual abuse. I don't have a specific article to link to, but Gabriel Dance discusses in a podcast [2] how many paedophiles are gradually indoctrinated by communities; they are made, not born. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/28/us/child-sex-abuse.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/28/us/child-sex-... Warning: extremely distressing descriptions. [2] https://samharris.org/podcasts/213-worst-epidemic/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/213-worst-epidemic/ Warning: ditto, though not as bad.
      - CuriouslyC 5y ago
        I don't doubt online pedophile communities support pedophiles, but I don't think they create them. Also, just because we're documenting it now doesn't mean it didn't happen before - sexual abuse of young girls has been endemic since forever, and people go through all sorts of contortions not to acknowledge it.
        versteegen 5y ago
        Gabriel Dance makes the argument much better than I could; I won't attempt it. He spent years investigating, actually doing things such as interviewing paedophiles, asking them 'why'. I don't have reason to doubt his conclusions. But what is clearly new is that now people are encouraged to abuse children because they can take a video, share it, sell it, gloat about it, trade it to get access to more material. Additionally, sharing imagery of abuse further harms the victims. For example, in that podcast it was mentioned that some victims receive a notification every time images of their abuse come up in a court case!
        CuriouslyC 5y ago
        Blocking child abuse literature and fake child porn isn't going to stop predators from doing the stuff you mention though. That stuff is still going to be teased on social media and shared on the darkweb.
- versteegen 5y ago
  Textual descriptions of child sexual abuse both desensitise (a thin end of a wedge, a slow on-boarding) and reinforce a habit or desire. See my reply down-thread.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Is the same true of movies where a man goes on a killing spree ala Rambo or John Wick? Or videogames where one does the same? I'm trying to suss out the logic where one indulgence of fantasy through fiction is ok and the other isn't.
    - klmadfejno 5y ago
      I would find it believable that sexual associations are more malleable than arbitrary behaviors.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
        If that is true, one would expect significant evidence to back it up exists. Studies on the effectiveness of gay conversion therapy suggest that your assertion is not based in fact.
        klmadfejno 5y ago
        I guess I would follow that up by saying development of festishes is not the same thing as base sexual orientation. I also don't think this would be easy to study at all. Furries might be a good candidate population to study.
        true_religion 5y ago
        I think the above poster is implying that no one is a pedophile by choice. That would mean people are choosing to desire heinous crimes, which would destroy their reputations permanently and send them to prison. If that were true, we would expect to see a lot more unity from these self selected people in the same way say cannabis users are always jockeying for laws to change. As it is, it looks like an pedophilia is a unasked for mental state spread out over the population at random.
CuriouslyC 5y ago
I'm pretty sure porn has prevented people from getting so sad and desperate that they are driven to abuse real people, kind of like how people develop emotional bonds with television characters when their life is empty.
- alpaca128 5y ago
  In the long term that's just as empty, though. You just can't replace real social contacts with digital media.
- _pmf_ 5y ago
  > I'm pretty sure porn has prevented people from getting so sad and desperate that they are driven to abuse real people Pretty sure the opposite is true.
  - camjohnson26 5y ago
    Ted Bundy claimed in his final interview extremely violent pornography desensitized him and made him start looking for stronger stimulation. I’m not sure how much you can trust his claims though.
    - ggggtez 5y ago
      Don't even suggest it. Billions of people on earth consume pornography. If this theory was right, there should be billions of serial killers. And remember: in the 1970s, his "extreme pornography" would be something a lot more tame than you can pull up during your lunch hour today. Some people are just naturally ill-fit for living in society, and the fix in not policing pornography. The fix is mental health medicine and psychiatry.
    - true_religion 5y ago
      Asking mad men to self diagnose the origins of their condition sounds like a bad idea. Even for normative people asking them how their fundamental morals changes would be usually be an unanswerable tar pit.
  - 5y ago
anonymoushn 5y ago
Why do we expect that in general the availability of pornography is hugely negatively correlated with sexual crimes but in this subset the opposite is true? Do we have studies about it?
staticassertion 5y ago
Is there research? I'd totally believe it, just curious, as it's sort of an old debate.
h_anna_h 5y ago
> Paraphilias are strengthened through repeated exposure and association with pleasure I heard some ultra-conservatives saying the same about gay porn and how "it turns people gay" as an argument to get it banned. Are you sure that you are not just recycling their arguments?
PicassoCTs 5y ago
Kind of like GTA has lead to a car-hijacking crisis and a amok-murder wave that still terrorizes all western nations? Those monkey sees, monkey does theories have been thoroughly debunked by now? Why not admit, that we forbid this stuff, because its horrifying and deeply distressing to see another person, especially a child suffer? Its the same crap as gore or torture-videos. What it is to somebody afflicted with these "preferences", doesen't factor into it at all?
ggggtez 5y ago
> human sexual attraction does not work that way. Says who? Are you a psychologist? I don't think there is any research that supports that reading written stories about rape increases the likelihood that a person goes out and rapes a real person (and let's be clear: pedophilia isn't the part that is illegal; it's the rape). Isn't this akin to the "playing violent videogames will make people into murderers" argument? Or with music, movies, and even comic-books before that? I'm right there with everyone in saying no one should rape children, but at least according to US law, simulated text stories are not illegal due to first amendment rights. It would take quite a causal-link to convince scientists and the courts that something that is gross should actually be illegal.

roenxi 5y ago

I think this may literally be the same argument as the one for banning D&D for corrupting the minds of youth. I suspect most (nay, all?) paraphilics have the ability to differentiate between reality and a page of text - just like many of us have avoided going full Don Quixote after reading Lord of the Rings. Maybe they'll get addicted to reading. Society will not crumble, and no children will be harmed.

ahelwer 5y ago
It has nothing to do with differentiating reality from fantasy. It has to do with whether a given pleasure association is strengthened or weakened. Pedophiles seek out these stimuli because of a pre-existing attraction toward children in the real world.
- roenxi 5y ago
  It is simpler than you think. If you're at a screen full of text and get a dose of dopamine or whatever, you're simply going to spend more time staring at screens of text. If your theory was true, we'd have seen historically massive upticks in violence from videogames. It is yet to materialise. This is an era of unusual peace.
  - ahelwer 5y ago
    Real-world violence is so far removed from its video game counterpart that there is no real comparison, as anyone who has been in any sort of fight understands. In contrast, pornography (visual or textual) is quite similar to its real-world counterpart.
    - Thiez 5y ago
      It is though? I'm thinking you and your partner(s) must either be very athletic, or you're watching some pretty tame porn.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - claudiawerner 5y ago
      >In contrast, pornography (visual or textual) is quite similar to its real-world counterpart. A cursory look around online erotic roleplayers, online stories, the manga/doujinshi sold in huge numbers every year in Japan at Comiket, or even the plots of mainstream porn will quickly disabuse you of this notion. I'm also not convinced on the 'no real comparison' for video games. I'm reminded of the fact that the US Army recruits first-person shooter players, and that video games can show a rise in aggression in lab settings, similar to real sports do. Even if they were all that different, you'd still have to specify in which specific ways, and the extent of those ways, the difference between the two entertainments is relevant to your argument.
  - versteegen 5y ago
    Please, let's not get distracted by videogame violence. We have seen historically massive upticks in child abuse material [1], caused by two inventions: the internet and smartphones with cameras, and there's a strong case made that it reflects an actual, large, increase in child sexual abuse. I don't have a specific article to link to, but Gabriel Dance discusses in a podcast [2] how many paedophiles are gradually indoctrinated by communities; they are made, not born. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/28/us/child-sex-abuse.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/28/us/child-sex-... Warning: extremely distressing descriptions. [2] https://samharris.org/podcasts/213-worst-epidemic/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/213-worst-epidemic/ Warning: ditto, though not as bad.
    - CuriouslyC 5y ago
      I don't doubt online pedophile communities support pedophiles, but I don't think they create them. Also, just because we're documenting it now doesn't mean it didn't happen before - sexual abuse of young girls has been endemic since forever, and people go through all sorts of contortions not to acknowledge it.
      - versteegen 5y ago
        Gabriel Dance makes the argument much better than I could; I won't attempt it. He spent years investigating, actually doing things such as interviewing paedophiles, asking them 'why'. I don't have reason to doubt his conclusions. But what is clearly new is that now people are encouraged to abuse children because they can take a video, share it, sell it, gloat about it, trade it to get access to more material. Additionally, sharing imagery of abuse further harms the victims. For example, in that podcast it was mentioned that some victims receive a notification every time images of their abuse come up in a court case!
        CuriouslyC 5y ago
        Blocking child abuse literature and fake child porn isn't going to stop predators from doing the stuff you mention though. That stuff is still going to be teased on social media and shared on the darkweb.
versteegen 5y ago
Textual descriptions of child sexual abuse both desensitise (a thin end of a wedge, a slow on-boarding) and reinforce a habit or desire. See my reply down-thread.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Is the same true of movies where a man goes on a killing spree ala Rambo or John Wick? Or videogames where one does the same? I'm trying to suss out the logic where one indulgence of fantasy through fiction is ok and the other isn't.
  - klmadfejno 5y ago
    I would find it believable that sexual associations are more malleable than arbitrary behaviors.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      If that is true, one would expect significant evidence to back it up exists. Studies on the effectiveness of gay conversion therapy suggest that your assertion is not based in fact.
      - klmadfejno 5y ago
        I guess I would follow that up by saying development of festishes is not the same thing as base sexual orientation. I also don't think this would be easy to study at all. Furries might be a good candidate population to study.
        true_religion 5y ago
        I think the above poster is implying that no one is a pedophile by choice. That would mean people are choosing to desire heinous crimes, which would destroy their reputations permanently and send them to prison. If that were true, we would expect to see a lot more unity from these self selected people in the same way say cannabis users are always jockeying for laws to change. As it is, it looks like an pedophilia is a unasked for mental state spread out over the population at random.

CuriouslyC 5y ago

I'm pretty sure porn has prevented people from getting so sad and desperate that they are driven to abuse real people, kind of like how people develop emotional bonds with television characters when their life is empty.

alpaca128 5y ago
In the long term that's just as empty, though. You just can't replace real social contacts with digital media.
_pmf_ 5y ago
> I'm pretty sure porn has prevented people from getting so sad and desperate that they are driven to abuse real people Pretty sure the opposite is true.
- camjohnson26 5y ago
  Ted Bundy claimed in his final interview extremely violent pornography desensitized him and made him start looking for stronger stimulation. I’m not sure how much you can trust his claims though.
  - ggggtez 5y ago
    Don't even suggest it. Billions of people on earth consume pornography. If this theory was right, there should be billions of serial killers. And remember: in the 1970s, his "extreme pornography" would be something a lot more tame than you can pull up during your lunch hour today. Some people are just naturally ill-fit for living in society, and the fix in not policing pornography. The fix is mental health medicine and psychiatry.
  - true_religion 5y ago
    Asking mad men to self diagnose the origins of their condition sounds like a bad idea. Even for normative people asking them how their fundamental morals changes would be usually be an unanswerable tar pit.
- 5y ago

anonymoushn 5y ago

Why do we expect that in general the availability of pornography is hugely negatively correlated with sexual crimes but in this subset the opposite is true? Do we have studies about it?

staticassertion 5y ago

Is there research? I'd totally believe it, just curious, as it's sort of an old debate.

h_anna_h 5y ago

> Paraphilias are strengthened through repeated exposure and association with pleasure I heard some ultra-conservatives saying the same about gay porn and how "it turns people gay" as an argument to get it banned. Are you sure that you are not just recycling their arguments?

PicassoCTs 5y ago

Kind of like GTA has lead to a car-hijacking crisis and a amok-murder wave that still terrorizes all western nations? Those monkey sees, monkey does theories have been thoroughly debunked by now? Why not admit, that we forbid this stuff, because its horrifying and deeply distressing to see another person, especially a child suffer? Its the same crap as gore or torture-videos. What it is to somebody afflicted with these "preferences", doesen't factor into it at all?

ggggtez 5y ago

> human sexual attraction does not work that way. Says who? Are you a psychologist? I don't think there is any research that supports that reading written stories about rape increases the likelihood that a person goes out and rapes a real person (and let's be clear: pedophilia isn't the part that is illegal; it's the rape). Isn't this akin to the "playing violent videogames will make people into murderers" argument? Or with music, movies, and even comic-books before that? I'm right there with everyone in saying no one should rape children, but at least according to US law, simulated text stories are not illegal due to first amendment rights. It would take quite a causal-link to convince scientists and the courts that something that is gross should actually be illegal.