8 ms·

Better drainage of brain debris improves Alzheimer's disease therapies

125 points by JPLeRouzic 6y ago

datavirtue 6y ago
I started searching for things that would stimulate lymphatic system (supliments/drugs) after reading this but just found the same old unsurprising advice. Eat lite unprocessed foods, avoid sugar, exercise and drink plenty of water. Prevention.
api 6y ago
This is fascinating... could Alzheimers be a result of a lymphatic analogue of arteriosclerosis or artery blockage? If so then maybe similar treatments might work.
Zababa 6y ago
In mice. Still, it's nice that it's working (in mice).
- jonplackett 6y ago
  I think I'm gonna get a pet mouse. We really have a lot of excellent therapies to keep mice healthy.
  - LinuxBender 6y ago
    You may also need to buy that mouse from a specific lab for the therapies to have reproducible effects. [1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve4q-1D_Ajo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve4q-1D_Ajo
- thro1 6y ago
  >In mice.. In this case I think they could check old pandas (lifespan to 30+ years) if shaking that debris did help them to remove it: Rolling Is A Specialty For Pandas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6JIXr4-4Tw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6JIXr4-4Tw (3:27), shorter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnCuGoxMWas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnCuGoxMWas (0:15) This kind of treatment looks safe even for children (early prevention, ongoing trial since 2014): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5uCbfxF4w8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5uCbfxF4w8 (2:51), more advanced later treatment is possible too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrB1xitSQRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrB1xitSQRI (0:17) (there is more..). Shaking brain when dancing is not always the safest option (acceleration control problem), better results will be obtained safer by rolling - think: aerotrim with the 'exercise' and laughing - btw check the AirTrack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBWJQ8dAnWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBWJQ8dAnWg (3:37) or home edition ;)
  - meristohm 6y ago
    Rolling sounds good for proprioception. My toddler enjoys being rolled around, and I remember rolling as a kid, and having to adjust to keep going in a straight line. Thanks, I’ll do it again. Also thanks to this thread for the nudge back into morning exercise. “The Five Tibetan Rites”[0] is a dynamic set that can be committed to memory easy enough, as one example. Jogging around the field with an aging-but-still-faster dog for the morning perimeter check/mark also helps. [0] https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Tibetan_Rites https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Tibetan_Rites
1e-9 6y ago
Perhaps this is why physical exercise appears to reduce the risk of Alzheimer’s disease[1]. Our lymphatic system relies on muscle contractions to move lymph. So, increasing exercise results in increased lymph flow, which might then clear more amyloid-beta from our brain. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7113559/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7113559/
- plutonorm 6y ago
  I was actually wondering today if hot/cold cycling the head could increase lymphatic drainage and increase cerebrospinal fluid cycling. Cold shower, hot shower, cold shower etc on the head... Will I become mega mind?
  - conradev 6y ago
    It is pretty common to jump into a cold bath after spending time in a sauna Regardless of actual health effects, it feels fantastic!
    - tartoran 6y ago
      Yes it does but not sure if recommended for people with heart problems. But yes, hot cold cycles reset the nervous system and yes, it feels great afterwards. The worst I find is the initial moment before plunging in cold water and the more I hesitatie the harder it gets
      - meristohm 6y ago
        The main psychological benefit of taking only cold showers over the last five months is practice with starting an action I don’t want to do, because oooh there have been times when I was already cold and despite knowing I’d feel great afterwards, the present moment was scary.
  - kyle_morris_ 6y ago
    I’ve been wondering the same. I think of inducing heat/cold similar to turning a rusty spigot. The first few turns are difficult but the more you do it the easier it gets. But do spigots in other parts of your body get turned that are also rusty, so to speak? I notice cold/hot showers help my body regulate my temperature better, generally.
intotheabyss 6y ago
Want better drainage? Get adequate sleep.
- cj 6y ago
  Source?
joshwa 6y ago
Can I just stick a vibrator against the back of my skull for a few minutes daily?
- mrtesthah 6y ago
  Perhaps a very tiny one: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-evidence-ultrasound-alzheimer-disease.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-evidence-ultrasound-a...
throwawayrbags 6y ago
Worth investigating is whether regular use of an inversion table improves lymphatic drainage. That would be a relatively safe and inexpensive way to manage the risk of Alzheimer's. It might be even more efficient, say in milliliters of lymph drained per minute, than the usual forms of exercise.
ProjectArcturis 6y ago
Neuro PhD here. Here's the experiment they actually did: create a transgenic mouse that overexpesses beta-amyloid. They're all messed up, not just their memory, but we think beta-amyloid causes Alzheimer's, so this is our mouse model of Alzheimer's. Then further screw with the mouse by blocking its CSF drainage. Anti-amyloid drugs help the standard transgenic mice, but don't help the blocked ones. Then unblock the blocked mice, and Voila! you've fixed them. A cure for Alzheimer's is right around the corner, right? Except, this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Alzheimer's in humans. You're assuming it's caused by beta-amyloid, but there have been a dozen giant Phase 3 trials testing amyloid-removal drugs and they've all failed. Fundamentally, all you've done is mess with mice in two different ways, then when you undo the ways you've screwed with them, they're more or less back to normal. This all tells you virtually nothing about how Alzheimer's actually happens in humans, much less how to cure it.
- zionic 6y ago
  How far off do you think we are from simulating an entire human on a protein level in accelerated time? Imagine a world where a drug concept could be simulated on an entire human model in parallel cradle to grave 1000x faster than normal. What level of compute is necessary to pull that off?
  - simcop2387 6y ago
    Decades at least, we don't even have close to a complete list of the proteins in our bodies which would be needed to start thinking avout simulating them.
  - taneq 6y ago
    We're still struggling to accurately simulate a C. elegans. We're a little way off simulating 50+ kg of conscious organism. Not to mention the ethical implications. If we're happy to run "cradle to the grave" tests on a human simulated to that level of accuracy, why not just run them on actual humans bred for research? We can do that right now, far cheaper. ...of course, maybe that just means that we're the disease model...
akomtu 6y ago
Drainage of brain is how I'd describe what I feel in my head when meditating: as if there are pipes on the brain that get clogged during day and locking up on a static thought flushes those pipes down. That's a weirdly pleasant feeling.
TaupeRanger 6y ago
Very misleading and basically entirely false headline.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

125 points by JPLeRouzic 6y ago

I started searching for things that would stimulate lymphatic system (supliments/drugs) after reading this but just found the same old unsurprising advice. Eat lite unprocessed foods, avoid sugar, exercise and drink plenty of water. Prevention.

api 6y ago

This is fascinating... could Alzheimers be a result of a lymphatic analogue of arteriosclerosis or artery blockage? If so then maybe similar treatments might work.

Zababa 6y ago

In mice. Still, it's nice that it's working (in mice).

jonplackett 6y ago
I think I'm gonna get a pet mouse. We really have a lot of excellent therapies to keep mice healthy.
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  You may also need to buy that mouse from a specific lab for the therapies to have reproducible effects. [1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve4q-1D_Ajo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve4q-1D_Ajo
thro1 6y ago
>In mice.. In this case I think they could check old pandas (lifespan to 30+ years) if shaking that debris did help them to remove it: Rolling Is A Specialty For Pandas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6JIXr4-4Tw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6JIXr4-4Tw (3:27), shorter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnCuGoxMWas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnCuGoxMWas (0:15) This kind of treatment looks safe even for children (early prevention, ongoing trial since 2014): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5uCbfxF4w8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5uCbfxF4w8 (2:51), more advanced later treatment is possible too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrB1xitSQRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrB1xitSQRI (0:17) (there is more..). Shaking brain when dancing is not always the safest option (acceleration control problem), better results will be obtained safer by rolling - think: aerotrim with the 'exercise' and laughing - btw check the AirTrack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBWJQ8dAnWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBWJQ8dAnWg (3:37) or home edition ;)
- meristohm 6y ago
  Rolling sounds good for proprioception. My toddler enjoys being rolled around, and I remember rolling as a kid, and having to adjust to keep going in a straight line. Thanks, I’ll do it again. Also thanks to this thread for the nudge back into morning exercise. “The Five Tibetan Rites”[0] is a dynamic set that can be committed to memory easy enough, as one example. Jogging around the field with an aging-but-still-faster dog for the morning perimeter check/mark also helps. [0] https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Tibetan_Rites https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Tibetan_Rites

1e-9 6y ago

Perhaps this is why physical exercise appears to reduce the risk of Alzheimer’s disease[1]. Our lymphatic system relies on muscle contractions to move lymph. So, increasing exercise results in increased lymph flow, which might then clear more amyloid-beta from our brain. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7113559/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7113559/

plutonorm 6y ago
I was actually wondering today if hot/cold cycling the head could increase lymphatic drainage and increase cerebrospinal fluid cycling. Cold shower, hot shower, cold shower etc on the head... Will I become mega mind?
- conradev 6y ago
  It is pretty common to jump into a cold bath after spending time in a sauna Regardless of actual health effects, it feels fantastic!
  - tartoran 6y ago
    Yes it does but not sure if recommended for people with heart problems. But yes, hot cold cycles reset the nervous system and yes, it feels great afterwards. The worst I find is the initial moment before plunging in cold water and the more I hesitatie the harder it gets
    - meristohm 6y ago
      The main psychological benefit of taking only cold showers over the last five months is practice with starting an action I don’t want to do, because oooh there have been times when I was already cold and despite knowing I’d feel great afterwards, the present moment was scary.
- kyle_morris_ 6y ago
  I’ve been wondering the same. I think of inducing heat/cold similar to turning a rusty spigot. The first few turns are difficult but the more you do it the easier it gets. But do spigots in other parts of your body get turned that are also rusty, so to speak? I notice cold/hot showers help my body regulate my temperature better, generally.

intotheabyss 6y ago

Want better drainage? Get adequate sleep.

cj 6y ago
Source?

joshwa 6y ago

Can I just stick a vibrator against the back of my skull for a few minutes daily?

mrtesthah 6y ago
Perhaps a very tiny one: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-evidence-ultrasound-alzheimer-disease.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-evidence-ultrasound-a...

throwawayrbags 6y ago

Worth investigating is whether regular use of an inversion table improves lymphatic drainage. That would be a relatively safe and inexpensive way to manage the risk of Alzheimer's. It might be even more efficient, say in milliliters of lymph drained per minute, than the usual forms of exercise.

ProjectArcturis 6y ago

Neuro PhD here. Here's the experiment they actually did: create a transgenic mouse that overexpesses beta-amyloid. They're all messed up, not just their memory, but we think beta-amyloid causes Alzheimer's, so this is our mouse model of Alzheimer's. Then further screw with the mouse by blocking its CSF drainage. Anti-amyloid drugs help the standard transgenic mice, but don't help the blocked ones. Then unblock the blocked mice, and Voila! you've fixed them. A cure for Alzheimer's is right around the corner, right? Except, this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Alzheimer's in humans. You're assuming it's caused by beta-amyloid, but there have been a dozen giant Phase 3 trials testing amyloid-removal drugs and they've all failed. Fundamentally, all you've done is mess with mice in two different ways, then when you undo the ways you've screwed with them, they're more or less back to normal. This all tells you virtually nothing about how Alzheimer's actually happens in humans, much less how to cure it.

zionic 6y ago
How far off do you think we are from simulating an entire human on a protein level in accelerated time? Imagine a world where a drug concept could be simulated on an entire human model in parallel cradle to grave 1000x faster than normal. What level of compute is necessary to pull that off?
- simcop2387 6y ago
  Decades at least, we don't even have close to a complete list of the proteins in our bodies which would be needed to start thinking avout simulating them.
- taneq 6y ago
  We're still struggling to accurately simulate a C. elegans. We're a little way off simulating 50+ kg of conscious organism. Not to mention the ethical implications. If we're happy to run "cradle to the grave" tests on a human simulated to that level of accuracy, why not just run them on actual humans bred for research? We can do that right now, far cheaper. ...of course, maybe that just means that we're the disease model...

akomtu 6y ago

Drainage of brain is how I'd describe what I feel in my head when meditating: as if there are pipes on the brain that get clogged during day and locking up on a static thought flushes those pipes down. That's a weirdly pleasant feeling.

TaupeRanger 6y ago

Very misleading and basically entirely false headline.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]