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Looks interesting, but based on the privacy policy terms of data usage, transferability, and so forth, I can't in good faith test with real financial data: http

Looks interesting, but based on the privacy policy terms of data usage, transferability, and so forth, I can't in good faith test with real financial data: https://projectifi.io/privacy-policy.html https://projectifi.io/privacy-policy.html Everytime I see a tool that shouldn't need to be hosted remotely as a service and could reasonably be deployed to the client where they have more control over their data (not as a service), it's a non-starter for me. I get it, that's the industry model now and it's how you can get comped for your time investment, gain passive income, control IP, etc. Unfortunately, those cost models will get no comp from me in any way. Having more data rights and ownership for a week or so free trial version where you can later shift to a pay model in which your data is still owned entirely by you during the entire course of the application usage would make more sense for people like me who still want privacy. I'm probably not the target market for something like this though and the number of people like me seem to be on the decline, so there's that.

scubakid 6y ago
Thanks for the feedback! I've thought about maybe creating a version which is wrapped up as an Electron app and runs natively and with no google analytics, etc. Does it sound like that might alleviate some of your concerns?
- scubakid 6y ago
  I guess I should also add that with the current web version, you can opt out of sending telemetry data via cookie preferences, and with the Premium version you choose whether or not you want your data persisted or not. (there is also a button to remove all your data at a later date if desired). Perhaps something else that might be helpful to add is an import/export button so you can save and load data locally(?)
  - GordonS 6y ago
    Can I ask how you are using the telemetry that you collect?
    - scubakid 6y ago
      Currently just google analytics dashboards showing things like navigation within the app and where users are dropping off during the onboarding process.
  - seieste 6y ago
    > (there is also a button to remove all your data at a later date if desired) Do you keep database backups?
    - scubakid 6y ago
      Currently, no. I suppose one could criticize that from an operations perspective, but at least data requested for deletion does really go away.
      - judge2020 6y ago
        Not having a recovery plan is bad. You should have backups but with lifecycle rules that remove them after x days.
  - Kalium 6y ago
    > I guess I should also add that with the current web version, you can opt out of sending telemetry data via cookie preferences, and with the Premium version you choose whether or not you want your data persisted or not. Rather than ameliorate concerns about privacy, this intensifies them. This is the approach I would expect from a megacorporation hellbent on mining my private data to death while pointing to the by-sheer-coincidence-hidden option to opt out of telemetry. And the choice to pay for the ability to not be data-mined to death. These are the design choices I expect from a product team that regards privacy as something to be defeated and evaded. It's the sort of thing I would expect from Facebook. Perhaps a privacy-centered approach might be worth considering? What might the user experience look like if behavior was not tracked until the user explicitly consented to just specifically that? What if the ability to upload your data was a premium option, with the local-only privacy-preserving experience the default? What data do you need to let people do incredibly personal calculations, as opposed to what data do you want?
    - scubakid 6y ago
      Oops, it seems my attempt to add clarity on the current implementation only added more confusion. Sorry about that. Let me try to break down the status quo in more detail. 1. User arrives on the site, no google analytics activated unless user accepts cookie settings (which includes option to accept some types and not others). 2. User onboards and creates a plan for free, experiments with app -- no plan data or results are transmitted. Everything done client-side in JavaScript and goes away on page refresh. 3. User decides to upgrade to premium. If they do, the app asks if they would like to enable persistent data. If they enable this feature, only then is plan data saved.
      - Kalium 6y ago
        Thank you! That clears things up considerably.
  - melody_calling 6y ago
    I think part of the disconnect is communicating what the app actually does vs. what the terms permit it to do in the future. It sounds like you've put genuine thought into this, and your privacy policy is very readable, but it suffers from the generic "WTFPL" clauses. For example, you clearly specify who the third-parties are and what data is shared, which again is commendable. But it's combined with "we may use your data for [any] other purposes", "we may sell and may have sold [extremely personal PII]", and so on. Are you doing this? Doesn't seem like it. Could you? Apparently, and that's part of the concern.
- samtimalsina 6y ago
  I would really be interested in that approach as well. I don't necessarily need my data synced to the cloud. A way to import and export data for backups would be nice.
- subpixel 6y ago
  I just created an account but did not feel comfortable uploading data, having already associated my account with my identity via Gmail. Would love to run something locally.
  - scubakid 6y ago
    You should be able to use the app without making an account. And plan data is not synced to the cloud unless you upgrade to premium and also explicitly enable that feature.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
29athrowaway 6y ago
For every person that cares about privacy, there are 10,000 that don't. That's why it's so profitable to be an evil data hoarder.
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  How is data hoarding evil? Data lets us improve things, know what services need to be made, connect everything better. There's potential for abuse as in anything but we don't call cough syrup evil.
  - efnx 6y ago
    I like the analogy and agree with you but the potential for abuse of cough syrup is for the user, not the manufacturer. Maybe another analogy would be like if you had to give your full banking information to every restaurant your family dines at?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - z0r 6y ago
    I remember seeing Bruce Schneier talk about this - https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/03/data_is_a_toxic.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/03/data_is_a_tox... imo this is the single correct perspective to have about data
  - royaltjames 6y ago
    Hoarding of any type is a disorder, just like how addiction used to (still is) be considered a moral defect. Cough syrup not being evil -used as intended to alleviate symptoms but not cure OR chugged like a panacea ambrosia delivered by the gods- is such a weird analogy to write as the burden of use falls on the individual rather than the collector. How dare people prescribed highly addictive advertised as nonaddictive cocaine start taking it spoonful up the butthole~
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    How to be evil: - Offer a service. - Claim that your service exists to make the world better in some vague way. - Train yourself to sound like a compassionate, altruistic person that cares about others. - Sell user data. Hide the information about what data is being sold and who is buying it and why as much as possible. - Become wealthy selling data from users who trusted you. - Buy bona-fide companies and put them to the service of your evil cause. - Normalize evil behavior. Force other companies to become evil in order to compete. - Turn the Internet into a privacy nightmare. - Turn the field of computer science into satanism.
devinsit 6y ago
I agree. The trend of handing over all your data (especially your financial data) to some nebulous service isn't exactly my favourite. Which is why I built https://ufincs.com https://ufincs.com, a nebulous service where you hand over all your financial data! Yes, that was a joke. In reality, uFincs is more of a stop-gap between what you seek (native app where you own the data) and what the status quo is (web-based app where your data ownage is dubious). Yes, uFincs is a web app, but we take the extra step to do client-side encryption so that the only financial data being stored in our database is a jumble of base64; I don't want to touch your actual financial data with a 10-foot pole. Of course, like some other people in this thread have mentioned, having a completely client-side app is also pretty important. Well, we have exactly that: https://ufincs.com/noaccount https://ufincs.com/noaccount. You can use uFincs right away, without any account, and the app works completely client-side, completely offline. You can even export your data and then re-import it later if you so prefer! Of course, the tech that enables this 'no account' option is also what makes the logged-in app work offline-first, so I think it's pretty cool :) And if anyone asks "Well, why a web app at all then?", it's because I wanted a web app. Yes, I do enjoy accessing my finances on all my devices, thank you very much. But we do have plans to build out standalone desktop/mobile apps in the future.
- calderarrow 6y ago
  ufincs looks very cool! During my December holiday, I was thinking of making a web-based platform that had a more modern UI than GNUcash, and it looks like you built it already! Just curious, what's your tech stack, how long have you been working on it, and how many users do you have?
  - devinsit 6y ago
    That's exactly what uFincs is, a modern version of GnuCash! I had the exact same thoughts as you did :) The simple tech stack breakdown is that the client-side is React + Redux + TypeScript + Sass. Of note, I use redux-saga, which has been an absolute boon for some of the more complex flows. Design system is completely custom. Backend API is Node + Feathers. Database is Postgres. Marketing site is served separately from the app and is React + NextJS + Tailwind CSS. I intend to write up a more complete breakdown of the tech stack sometime in the future. In terms of how long it's taken to get this far, longer than I'd like to admit... there was a version '0.1' that was built as a capstone project over the course of 2019, then the redesigned version (uFincs as it exists now) that's been ongoing since the start of 2020. And the user situation can look... misleading. I only 'officially' launched last week, so for the longest time the only user has been le-moi (and some friends that did testing), but I actually did just acquire my first paying customer yesterday!
wait_a_minute 6y ago
Do you pay for desktop software though? Such tools could be built for desktops-first with no data ever leaving the machine, but people will scoff at paying for them...
qwertox 6y ago
The terms are warning sign. Specially the section "Transfer of Your Personal Data" as well as "Disclosure of Your Personal Data", which states that > If the Company is involved in an asset sale, Your Personal Data may be transferred. The Personal Data is the asset. This is like saying: If we want to sell your financial data, we will do so.
- cube00 6y ago
  Blanket permission to share your information with third parties for advertising too > We may share Your personal information in the following situations: > With business partners: We may share Your information with Our business partners to offer You certain products, services or promotions.
system2 6y ago
Agreed. Giving up my financials to a site is unacceptable. I rather use Excel sheet with fancy graphs myself.
- okr 6y ago
  So a site like youneedabudget would not be useful either to you?
  - system2 6y ago
    No. After long years of trying to fix my financial life, I am sure of one thing that apps do not help. Simplifying it with a simple excel sheet is way more efficient because it is much more simple, realistic and more flexible too. Simple math, you make X, spend Y. If there is a new expense, add a new line in excel and finished. I tried many of these apps in the past. Excel wins every time. (For me.)
dheera 6y ago
> ProjectiFi You might want to reconsider the name -- it looks way too similar to Google's Project Fi. Or at least the logo, which looks like cell phone reception bars, which even further reminds me of Project Fi.
- xcambar 6y ago
  HN tropism at its fullest. IMO, 99% of the real people know or care about Google's Project Fi.
dheera 6y ago
Could you perhaps just divide all of your financial numbers by some linear factor N that you keep secret? But yes, this should really be an client-side / offline app.
gofreddygo 6y ago
I agree with owning your personal financial data. Very few people I know understand and appreciate double entry bookkeeping for finances. I learned about it recently from beancount [1] and it was a revelation. I don't go overboard with detailed transactions and keep it high level with around 5 accounts salary/mortgage/cc/investments etc. I now personally keep my raw data (monthly income/expense/balances) in a spreadsheet. I have 1 html file with js embedded that does my homegrown calculations (works great on a phone). Spreadsheet is updated monthly. I add data from my monthly bank statements (same day I pay my credit card bills so I don't forget). Run the calculations whenever I need to (so far has been very rare). My takeaway: discipline around personal finances is more important than what tool, services or process I use. Looking at my income/expense/balances and mapping to what happened last month, looking at trends is valuable. For me that comes from piggybacking on the critical routine/ritual of paying my bills. 1: https://beancount.github.io/docs/the_double_entry_counting_method.html https://beancount.github.io/docs/the_double_entry_counting_m...
- endominus 6y ago
  The importance of this cannot be overstated. I used to use Mint when I was in college, but got sick of them pushing credit cards on me, and the uncomfortable feeling of giving a service full access to my bank account. I tried tracking all my expenses in a spreadsheet for a year, which worked fine, but wasn't the most flexible system (or rather, it very quickly became a UX monstrosity). Now I use hledger, which has been fantastic. I back up the file to a shared drive that's sync'ed to my phone, so every time I get a message from the bank or pay with cash, I can immediately note it down (this would have been much less workable before I found the "cone" app) and track my spending across dozens of accounts. There are some improvements that could be made as to the visualization of data, which I might write a quick webapp for, but in terms of simplicity, robustness, and ease of use, plaintext is definitely the way to go.

scubakid 6y ago

Thanks for the feedback! I've thought about maybe creating a version which is wrapped up as an Electron app and runs natively and with no google analytics, etc. Does it sound like that might alleviate some of your concerns?

scubakid 6y ago
I guess I should also add that with the current web version, you can opt out of sending telemetry data via cookie preferences, and with the Premium version you choose whether or not you want your data persisted or not. (there is also a button to remove all your data at a later date if desired). Perhaps something else that might be helpful to add is an import/export button so you can save and load data locally(?)
- GordonS 6y ago
  Can I ask how you are using the telemetry that you collect?
  - scubakid 6y ago
    Currently just google analytics dashboards showing things like navigation within the app and where users are dropping off during the onboarding process.
- seieste 6y ago
  > (there is also a button to remove all your data at a later date if desired) Do you keep database backups?
  - scubakid 6y ago
    Currently, no. I suppose one could criticize that from an operations perspective, but at least data requested for deletion does really go away.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      Not having a recovery plan is bad. You should have backups but with lifecycle rules that remove them after x days.
- Kalium 6y ago
  > I guess I should also add that with the current web version, you can opt out of sending telemetry data via cookie preferences, and with the Premium version you choose whether or not you want your data persisted or not. Rather than ameliorate concerns about privacy, this intensifies them. This is the approach I would expect from a megacorporation hellbent on mining my private data to death while pointing to the by-sheer-coincidence-hidden option to opt out of telemetry. And the choice to pay for the ability to not be data-mined to death. These are the design choices I expect from a product team that regards privacy as something to be defeated and evaded. It's the sort of thing I would expect from Facebook. Perhaps a privacy-centered approach might be worth considering? What might the user experience look like if behavior was not tracked until the user explicitly consented to just specifically that? What if the ability to upload your data was a premium option, with the local-only privacy-preserving experience the default? What data do you need to let people do incredibly personal calculations, as opposed to what data do you want?
  - scubakid 6y ago
    Oops, it seems my attempt to add clarity on the current implementation only added more confusion. Sorry about that. Let me try to break down the status quo in more detail. 1. User arrives on the site, no google analytics activated unless user accepts cookie settings (which includes option to accept some types and not others). 2. User onboards and creates a plan for free, experiments with app -- no plan data or results are transmitted. Everything done client-side in JavaScript and goes away on page refresh. 3. User decides to upgrade to premium. If they do, the app asks if they would like to enable persistent data. If they enable this feature, only then is plan data saved.
    - Kalium 6y ago
      Thank you! That clears things up considerably.
- melody_calling 6y ago
  I think part of the disconnect is communicating what the app actually does vs. what the terms permit it to do in the future. It sounds like you've put genuine thought into this, and your privacy policy is very readable, but it suffers from the generic "WTFPL" clauses. For example, you clearly specify who the third-parties are and what data is shared, which again is commendable. But it's combined with "we may use your data for [any] other purposes", "we may sell and may have sold [extremely personal PII]", and so on. Are you doing this? Doesn't seem like it. Could you? Apparently, and that's part of the concern.
samtimalsina 6y ago
I would really be interested in that approach as well. I don't necessarily need my data synced to the cloud. A way to import and export data for backups would be nice.
subpixel 6y ago
I just created an account but did not feel comfortable uploading data, having already associated my account with my identity via Gmail. Would love to run something locally.
- scubakid 6y ago
  You should be able to use the app without making an account. And plan data is not synced to the cloud unless you upgrade to premium and also explicitly enable that feature.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

29athrowaway 6y ago

For every person that cares about privacy, there are 10,000 that don't. That's why it's so profitable to be an evil data hoarder.

jimmaswell 6y ago
How is data hoarding evil? Data lets us improve things, know what services need to be made, connect everything better. There's potential for abuse as in anything but we don't call cough syrup evil.
- efnx 6y ago
  I like the analogy and agree with you but the potential for abuse of cough syrup is for the user, not the manufacturer. Maybe another analogy would be like if you had to give your full banking information to every restaurant your family dines at?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- z0r 6y ago
  I remember seeing Bruce Schneier talk about this - https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/03/data_is_a_toxic.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/03/data_is_a_tox... imo this is the single correct perspective to have about data
- royaltjames 6y ago
  Hoarding of any type is a disorder, just like how addiction used to (still is) be considered a moral defect. Cough syrup not being evil -used as intended to alleviate symptoms but not cure OR chugged like a panacea ambrosia delivered by the gods- is such a weird analogy to write as the burden of use falls on the individual rather than the collector. How dare people prescribed highly addictive advertised as nonaddictive cocaine start taking it spoonful up the butthole~
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  How to be evil: - Offer a service. - Claim that your service exists to make the world better in some vague way. - Train yourself to sound like a compassionate, altruistic person that cares about others. - Sell user data. Hide the information about what data is being sold and who is buying it and why as much as possible. - Become wealthy selling data from users who trusted you. - Buy bona-fide companies and put them to the service of your evil cause. - Normalize evil behavior. Force other companies to become evil in order to compete. - Turn the Internet into a privacy nightmare. - Turn the field of computer science into satanism.

devinsit 6y ago

I agree. The trend of handing over all your data (especially your financial data) to some nebulous service isn't exactly my favourite. Which is why I built https://ufincs.com https://ufincs.com, a nebulous service where you hand over all your financial data! Yes, that was a joke. In reality, uFincs is more of a stop-gap between what you seek (native app where you own the data) and what the status quo is (web-based app where your data ownage is dubious). Yes, uFincs is a web app, but we take the extra step to do client-side encryption so that the only financial data being stored in our database is a jumble of base64; I don't want to touch your actual financial data with a 10-foot pole. Of course, like some other people in this thread have mentioned, having a completely client-side app is also pretty important. Well, we have exactly that: https://ufincs.com/noaccount https://ufincs.com/noaccount. You can use uFincs right away, without any account, and the app works completely client-side, completely offline. You can even export your data and then re-import it later if you so prefer! Of course, the tech that enables this 'no account' option is also what makes the logged-in app work offline-first, so I think it's pretty cool :) And if anyone asks "Well, why a web app at all then?", it's because I wanted a web app. Yes, I do enjoy accessing my finances on all my devices, thank you very much. But we do have plans to build out standalone desktop/mobile apps in the future.

calderarrow 6y ago
ufincs looks very cool! During my December holiday, I was thinking of making a web-based platform that had a more modern UI than GNUcash, and it looks like you built it already! Just curious, what's your tech stack, how long have you been working on it, and how many users do you have?
- devinsit 6y ago
  That's exactly what uFincs is, a modern version of GnuCash! I had the exact same thoughts as you did :) The simple tech stack breakdown is that the client-side is React + Redux + TypeScript + Sass. Of note, I use redux-saga, which has been an absolute boon for some of the more complex flows. Design system is completely custom. Backend API is Node + Feathers. Database is Postgres. Marketing site is served separately from the app and is React + NextJS + Tailwind CSS. I intend to write up a more complete breakdown of the tech stack sometime in the future. In terms of how long it's taken to get this far, longer than I'd like to admit... there was a version '0.1' that was built as a capstone project over the course of 2019, then the redesigned version (uFincs as it exists now) that's been ongoing since the start of 2020. And the user situation can look... misleading. I only 'officially' launched last week, so for the longest time the only user has been le-moi (and some friends that did testing), but I actually did just acquire my first paying customer yesterday!

wait_a_minute 6y ago

Do you pay for desktop software though? Such tools could be built for desktops-first with no data ever leaving the machine, but people will scoff at paying for them...

qwertox 6y ago

The terms are warning sign. Specially the section "Transfer of Your Personal Data" as well as "Disclosure of Your Personal Data", which states that > If the Company is involved in an asset sale, Your Personal Data may be transferred. The Personal Data is the asset. This is like saying: If we want to sell your financial data, we will do so.

cube00 6y ago
Blanket permission to share your information with third parties for advertising too > We may share Your personal information in the following situations: > With business partners: We may share Your information with Our business partners to offer You certain products, services or promotions.

system2 6y ago

Agreed. Giving up my financials to a site is unacceptable. I rather use Excel sheet with fancy graphs myself.

okr 6y ago
So a site like youneedabudget would not be useful either to you?
- system2 6y ago
  No. After long years of trying to fix my financial life, I am sure of one thing that apps do not help. Simplifying it with a simple excel sheet is way more efficient because it is much more simple, realistic and more flexible too. Simple math, you make X, spend Y. If there is a new expense, add a new line in excel and finished. I tried many of these apps in the past. Excel wins every time. (For me.)

dheera 6y ago

> ProjectiFi You might want to reconsider the name -- it looks way too similar to Google's Project Fi. Or at least the logo, which looks like cell phone reception bars, which even further reminds me of Project Fi.

xcambar 6y ago
HN tropism at its fullest. IMO, 99% of the real people know or care about Google's Project Fi.

dheera 6y ago

Could you perhaps just divide all of your financial numbers by some linear factor N that you keep secret? But yes, this should really be an client-side / offline app.

gofreddygo 6y ago

I agree with owning your personal financial data. Very few people I know understand and appreciate double entry bookkeeping for finances. I learned about it recently from beancount [1] and it was a revelation. I don't go overboard with detailed transactions and keep it high level with around 5 accounts salary/mortgage/cc/investments etc. I now personally keep my raw data (monthly income/expense/balances) in a spreadsheet. I have 1 html file with js embedded that does my homegrown calculations (works great on a phone). Spreadsheet is updated monthly. I add data from my monthly bank statements (same day I pay my credit card bills so I don't forget). Run the calculations whenever I need to (so far has been very rare). My takeaway: discipline around personal finances is more important than what tool, services or process I use. Looking at my income/expense/balances and mapping to what happened last month, looking at trends is valuable. For me that comes from piggybacking on the critical routine/ritual of paying my bills. 1: https://beancount.github.io/docs/the_double_entry_counting_method.html https://beancount.github.io/docs/the_double_entry_counting_m...

endominus 6y ago
The importance of this cannot be overstated. I used to use Mint when I was in college, but got sick of them pushing credit cards on me, and the uncomfortable feeling of giving a service full access to my bank account. I tried tracking all my expenses in a spreadsheet for a year, which worked fine, but wasn't the most flexible system (or rather, it very quickly became a UX monstrosity). Now I use hledger, which has been fantastic. I back up the file to a shared drive that's sync'ed to my phone, so every time I get a message from the bank or pay with cash, I can immediately note it down (this would have been much less workable before I found the "cone" app) and track my spending across dozens of accounts. There are some improvements that could be made as to the visualization of data, which I might write a quick webapp for, but in terms of simplicity, robustness, and ease of use, plaintext is definitely the way to go.