4 ms·

I only kind of agree. In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to

by btilly 6y ago

I only kind of agree. In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? I hate the court of public opinion as much or more as the next guy. But if this is a real pattern and he is as practiced as it sounds, after 10-20 women come forth then I'll be very confident that the crime is real. And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. I agree with you that ideally this would go to the police first and they would actually act. But in the real world, she picked one of the best of the bad options available to her.

gambiting 6y ago
>>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. Well, that's not strictly true. At least the official advice in the UK is that even if the crime happened elsewhere you should still report it locally, then the case should be forwarded to the authorities in the country where it allegedly happened. https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%20need%20to%20make%20a,a%20recognised%20law%20enforcement%20authority https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%.... No idea how/if that would work in US, but in general you should be able to report it locally.
Fern_Blossom 6y ago
>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. >And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. Don't complain that a law enforcement agency doesn't do anything if they're never made aware of the problem.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nawgz 6y ago
  There are plenty of stories of law enforcement ignoring, downplaying, and even harassing victims of sexual crimes who try to report it. Please do not act like the police are a high trust authority who act only in good faith - we have overwhelmingly seen the other side of that in these past years.
  - suifbwish 6y ago
    There are also plenty of stories of the legal system working as intended. You can create any narrative you want from selectively paying attention to data.
    - nawgz 6y ago
      Yes, sure. Instead, by holistically paying attention to data, we can see that rape is a wildly underprosecuted crime[0], and thus we can stop acting like there are no possible barriers obstructing these victims from justice. Actually, it’s kind of hilarious when I put it this way... you’re the one selectively looking at the data to justify inaction. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than-percent-rapes-lead-felony-convictions-least-percent-victims-face-emotional-physical-consequences/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than...
      - suifbwish 6y ago
        It’s clear that emotion clouds judgement on this issue more so than even murder. Did you just cite Washington Post as an authoritative source?
- cogman10 6y ago
  > That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. Have you ever worked with an embassy? I have, it's no picnic even in the best of circumstances (lost passport). It takes time to setup such an appointment and you are expecting a young college student to have the wherewithal to navigate that all while being on a budget and having their current lodging with the aggressor. You are expecting an abused person to do everything right in a foreign county while currently staying with their abuser. Don't blame a sexual abuse victim for not doing everything right and by the books.
pydry 6y ago
>What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? If it's anything like the UK (and I suspect it is), they'll likely take it seriously. For example, see the police's reaction here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/mt1kw4/withdrawing_a_complaint_about_a_sexual_offence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/mt1kw4/withd... If she got robbed, on the other hand, or she reported something like this ten years ago, they'd probably say "meh we are busy, here's your crime reference number now go away".
- btilly 6y ago
  That is rather astounding. And completely opposite anything that I've ever heard, including from a woman I know who reported her rape less than 5 years ago in Australia. Meanwhile in the USA we literally have enough untested rape kits to fill a small city. According to https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sitting-on-shelves-untested/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sit... at least 100,000. (Nobody is really tracking the numbers well, so it is probably more than that.)
belorn 6y ago
Sweden and Uk spent tens of millions dealing with extradition case for just getting a hearing over an accusation with similar amount of evidence. Technically the legal system could do the same in her case.
- bashinator 6y ago
  Technically correct is the least useful kind of correct.
- elzbardico 6y ago
  We are not in the 80’s anymore. At least in the western world the police is far more prepared to help victims than in the past. Usually the victim is supported by a female investigator, because differently from the past, at least in bigger cities a sizable portion of the police force are women. We are creating this culture of woman fearing getting help from police by pretending things didn’t change during the last 40 years
  - monocasa 6y ago
    Counterpoint: a friend of mine was violently raped a decade ago, and I went with her to the hospital the next morning to get an exam and a rape kit to make a complaint. The police both refused to process the rape kit, and threatened to press charges against her for making a false complaint for 'regretting rough sex'. And that was with full on torn genitals, with an exam, violent rape, in a major metropolitan area in the US. We haven't come as far as you're making it out to be. I actually regret convincing her to go to the hospital and the police as all it did was increase the amount of trauma she experienced.
  - btilly 6y ago
    Per https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sitting-on-shelves-untested/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sit... police in the USA TODAY have over 100,000 untested rape kits collected from women who claimed to have been raped. You can start telling me how much things have changed after the police take rape seriously enough to actually process physical evidence of reported crimes.
baobabKoodaa 6y ago
> raped I agree with everything else in your post except for the description of events as "rape". According to the story she wrote, they had sex when she was drunk, and she thought for months after the fact that the sex had been consensual. To me it sounds like sexual abuse / exploitation, not rape. (Unless you're making the pedantic argument that having sex with an intoxicated person is always rape, in which case 2 intoxicated persons having sex would mean that both persons rape each other.)
- btilly 6y ago
  According to the story they had sex while drunk. But then he kept on having sex with her, including when she was saying that she didn't want him to. It is rape to have sex with a woman who didn't want it and told you not to. She describes exactly that happening later in the conference. Yes, she tried to convince herself that it was consensual. And he tried to convince her of the same. But that is also a common pattern for rape, both her attempt to deny it and his to gaslight her. Interestingly in surveys, the portion of women who describe having had an encounter meeting the definition of rape has held fairly steady over the decades. But the portion of women who self-describe that as rape has steadily risen. Then really jumped in 2018. Given that fact I find it interesting that he seems to target women from cultures that haven't internalized "no means no" as a standard. Cultures where it is easier for the man to do what he wants, then convince her that he didn't rape her.
  - baobabKoodaa 6y ago
    > But then he kept on having sex with her, including when she was saying that she didn't want him to. Nope, the article doesn't contain such claims. > It is rape to have sex with a woman who didn't want it and told you not to. Yes it is. > She describes exactly that happening later in the conference. No, she does not. > Yes, she tried to convince herself that it was consensual. And he tried to convince her of the same. But that is also a common pattern for rape, both her attempt to deny it and his to gaslight her. Two people have sex. Both people come out thinking the sex was consensual. Both people think for months that the sex was consensual. Then the woman changes her mind. Boom! Rape! Welcome to 2021. (To be perfectly clear, I am making fun of your comment, I am not making fun of OP. OP at no point referred to the events as rape, it is only you and other internet commentors who are dead set on using the "rape" label here.) > Interestingly in surveys, the portion of women who describe having had an encounter meeting the definition of rape has held fairly steady over the decades. But the portion of women who self-describe that as rape has steadily risen. Then really jumped in 2018. Peculiar indeed! Might it have something to do with the "definition of rape" becoming wider and wider every year? It used to mean a very specific thing, but nowadays it means a lot of things.
toyg 6y ago
I wonder if Pretty specifically chose this modus operandi (taking a woman to a third country before moving on her) to get himself a layer of legal protection. It’s a well-established practice in abuse communities after all (e.g. people traveling to Asia). It’s also interesting that this scenario would have probably been more unlikely in the past. Before the “sexual revolution”, an educated woman would never sleep alone in the same house as an unmarried man, for fear of her “honour” being maligned. That set of cultural values had its (massive) problems, but in some scenarios it actually worked better than the current one, effectively forcing women to avoid dangerous situations.
sepin4 6y ago
Not all criminal investigations are solved or competently followed. However this doesn't mean you should take justice in your own hands, which is what mob justice is. This is plain disrespect for official authority and the principal of "innocent until proven otherwise". Even murderers with clear and shut cases are afforded legal council and ways to defend themselves. Also, this could have been resolved if this was reported in timely manner, not years after. She is a victim, however her followup actions are neither correct nor proper.

by btilly 6y ago

gambiting 6y ago

>>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. Well, that's not strictly true. At least the official advice in the UK is that even if the crime happened elsewhere you should still report it locally, then the case should be forwarded to the authorities in the country where it allegedly happened. https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%20need%20to%20make%20a,a%20recognised%20law%20enforcement%20authority https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%.... No idea how/if that would work in US, but in general you should be able to report it locally.

Fern_Blossom 6y ago

>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. >And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. Don't complain that a law enforcement agency doesn't do anything if they're never made aware of the problem.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nawgz 6y ago
There are plenty of stories of law enforcement ignoring, downplaying, and even harassing victims of sexual crimes who try to report it. Please do not act like the police are a high trust authority who act only in good faith - we have overwhelmingly seen the other side of that in these past years.
- suifbwish 6y ago
  There are also plenty of stories of the legal system working as intended. You can create any narrative you want from selectively paying attention to data.
  - nawgz 6y ago
    Yes, sure. Instead, by holistically paying attention to data, we can see that rape is a wildly underprosecuted crime[0], and thus we can stop acting like there are no possible barriers obstructing these victims from justice. Actually, it’s kind of hilarious when I put it this way... you’re the one selectively looking at the data to justify inaction. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than-percent-rapes-lead-felony-convictions-least-percent-victims-face-emotional-physical-consequences/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than...
    - suifbwish 6y ago
      It’s clear that emotion clouds judgement on this issue more so than even murder. Did you just cite Washington Post as an authoritative source?
cogman10 6y ago
> That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. Have you ever worked with an embassy? I have, it's no picnic even in the best of circumstances (lost passport). It takes time to setup such an appointment and you are expecting a young college student to have the wherewithal to navigate that all while being on a budget and having their current lodging with the aggressor. You are expecting an abused person to do everything right in a foreign county while currently staying with their abuser. Don't blame a sexual abuse victim for not doing everything right and by the books.

pydry 6y ago

>What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? If it's anything like the UK (and I suspect it is), they'll likely take it seriously. For example, see the police's reaction here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/mt1kw4/withdrawing_a_complaint_about_a_sexual_offence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/mt1kw4/withd... If she got robbed, on the other hand, or she reported something like this ten years ago, they'd probably say "meh we are busy, here's your crime reference number now go away".

btilly 6y ago
That is rather astounding. And completely opposite anything that I've ever heard, including from a woman I know who reported her rape less than 5 years ago in Australia. Meanwhile in the USA we literally have enough untested rape kits to fill a small city. According to https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sitting-on-shelves-untested/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sit... at least 100,000. (Nobody is really tracking the numbers well, so it is probably more than that.)

belorn 6y ago

Sweden and Uk spent tens of millions dealing with extradition case for just getting a hearing over an accusation with similar amount of evidence. Technically the legal system could do the same in her case.

bashinator 6y ago
Technically correct is the least useful kind of correct.
elzbardico 6y ago
We are not in the 80’s anymore. At least in the western world the police is far more prepared to help victims than in the past. Usually the victim is supported by a female investigator, because differently from the past, at least in bigger cities a sizable portion of the police force are women. We are creating this culture of woman fearing getting help from police by pretending things didn’t change during the last 40 years
- monocasa 6y ago
  Counterpoint: a friend of mine was violently raped a decade ago, and I went with her to the hospital the next morning to get an exam and a rape kit to make a complaint. The police both refused to process the rape kit, and threatened to press charges against her for making a false complaint for 'regretting rough sex'. And that was with full on torn genitals, with an exam, violent rape, in a major metropolitan area in the US. We haven't come as far as you're making it out to be. I actually regret convincing her to go to the hospital and the police as all it did was increase the amount of trauma she experienced.
- btilly 6y ago
  Per https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sitting-on-shelves-untested/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rape-kits-are-sit... police in the USA TODAY have over 100,000 untested rape kits collected from women who claimed to have been raped. You can start telling me how much things have changed after the police take rape seriously enough to actually process physical evidence of reported crimes.

baobabKoodaa 6y ago

> raped I agree with everything else in your post except for the description of events as "rape". According to the story she wrote, they had sex when she was drunk, and she thought for months after the fact that the sex had been consensual. To me it sounds like sexual abuse / exploitation, not rape. (Unless you're making the pedantic argument that having sex with an intoxicated person is always rape, in which case 2 intoxicated persons having sex would mean that both persons rape each other.)

btilly 6y ago
According to the story they had sex while drunk. But then he kept on having sex with her, including when she was saying that she didn't want him to. It is rape to have sex with a woman who didn't want it and told you not to. She describes exactly that happening later in the conference. Yes, she tried to convince herself that it was consensual. And he tried to convince her of the same. But that is also a common pattern for rape, both her attempt to deny it and his to gaslight her. Interestingly in surveys, the portion of women who describe having had an encounter meeting the definition of rape has held fairly steady over the decades. But the portion of women who self-describe that as rape has steadily risen. Then really jumped in 2018. Given that fact I find it interesting that he seems to target women from cultures that haven't internalized "no means no" as a standard. Cultures where it is easier for the man to do what he wants, then convince her that he didn't rape her.
- baobabKoodaa 6y ago
  > But then he kept on having sex with her, including when she was saying that she didn't want him to. Nope, the article doesn't contain such claims. > It is rape to have sex with a woman who didn't want it and told you not to. Yes it is. > She describes exactly that happening later in the conference. No, she does not. > Yes, she tried to convince herself that it was consensual. And he tried to convince her of the same. But that is also a common pattern for rape, both her attempt to deny it and his to gaslight her. Two people have sex. Both people come out thinking the sex was consensual. Both people think for months that the sex was consensual. Then the woman changes her mind. Boom! Rape! Welcome to 2021. (To be perfectly clear, I am making fun of your comment, I am not making fun of OP. OP at no point referred to the events as rape, it is only you and other internet commentors who are dead set on using the "rape" label here.) > Interestingly in surveys, the portion of women who describe having had an encounter meeting the definition of rape has held fairly steady over the decades. But the portion of women who self-describe that as rape has steadily risen. Then really jumped in 2018. Peculiar indeed! Might it have something to do with the "definition of rape" becoming wider and wider every year? It used to mean a very specific thing, but nowadays it means a lot of things.

toyg 6y ago

I wonder if Pretty specifically chose this modus operandi (taking a woman to a third country before moving on her) to get himself a layer of legal protection. It’s a well-established practice in abuse communities after all (e.g. people traveling to Asia). It’s also interesting that this scenario would have probably been more unlikely in the past. Before the “sexual revolution”, an educated woman would never sleep alone in the same house as an unmarried man, for fear of her “honour” being maligned. That set of cultural values had its (massive) problems, but in some scenarios it actually worked better than the current one, effectively forcing women to avoid dangerous situations.

sepin4 6y ago

Not all criminal investigations are solved or competently followed. However this doesn't mean you should take justice in your own hands, which is what mob justice is. This is plain disrespect for official authority and the principal of "innocent until proven otherwise". Even murderers with clear and shut cases are afforded legal council and ways to defend themselves. Also, this could have been resolved if this was reported in timely manner, not years after. She is a victim, however her followup actions are neither correct nor proper.