12 ms·

Sex was had while she did not consent, she mentions in the fifth paragraph.

by Pfhreak 5y ago

the-dude 5y ago
That is not what she says there. She says she felt uncomfortable and taken advantage of.
- boblax 5y ago
  She is definitely the kind of woman where a man shouldn't be making such advances. Let her be the acting party. She would have been telling another story if she were on top and had taken the initiative. One of the simplest ways for a man to avoid the problems of consent where he suspects there may be is to be the one from whom consent is needed. That is the absolute safest other than leaving. If you as a man attempt to get consent that may not be something you're able to obtain. She might be intoxicated and unable to consent. You might not know that. However what's safe is to let anyone initiate sex with you while you remain passive and let them have sex with you. If you leave then I would strongly advise to say it is because you are feeling sick and think it's something you ate. Go to the toilet first and say you have the runs. That will cushion her pride and make her just glad you left. No chance of something mean-spirited.
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  Being taken advantage of while intoxicated and while there was a significant power imbalance between the two. She was not in a position to give consent there -- being intoxicated, being in a place that was being rented Pretty (and she could risk being out on the street if she refused), having no money and luggage on hand, being the mentee of Pretty (or believing she could be), etc. She ended up crying and panicking. That generally isn't the outcome of a consensual relationship.
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    It definitely sounds like he abused his position and did a horrible thing, but the thing he did is not rape (assuming OP story is 100% accurate description of events). If 2 people are intoxicated and have sex, do they both rape each other? If one person holds more power than the other, while both are intoxicated, is it just a one-way rape? Or is it still a two-way rape, where one person just "rapes a bit more" and the other person "rapes a bit less"? What if the person who had power ends up regretting sex afterwards and cries, does it "turn the tables" and cause the rapist to suddenly become the victim of rape, after the fact? Yes, she was drunk. Yes, she later regretted having sex. These things alone do not mean that rape was committed. As far as I can tell, she is not referring to the events as "rape", so maybe you shouldn't either.
    - Pfhreak 5y ago
      > she is not referring to the events as "rape", so maybe you shouldn't either. Can you point to where I used that word?
      - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
        > Can you point to where I used that word? Sure! I'm particularly referring to this exchange upstream. First, mirekrusin says: > Rape is doing it, not insisting, I think. ...And then you respond to this comment in a way that indicates that rape occurred: > Sex was had while she did not consent, she mentions in the fifth paragraph. Here is a direct link to your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26961759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26961759
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    I don't know what the law is in Germany, but here in California the threshold for alcohol isn't intoxication it's incapacitation. What happens if two intoxicated people have sex with each other? They're both simultaneously rape victim but also rapists?
  - esarbe 5y ago
    They were both intoxicated and Pretty is not a very big name, not even in the Scala community. It's not as if we were talking about Martin Odersky. The guy gives talks from time to time and contributes code to some projects. That's it. > She was not in a position to give consent there [...] Of course she was. If all the stated facts in her account are true, then Pretty was behaving like an asshole (In setting her up and then trying to get in her knickers). But she was absolutely in a position to consent. Otherwise you make it very easy for people to shed responsibility. Being in a shitty position doesn't absolve you from bad decisions. > She ended up crying and panicking. If that's true, Petty should have stopped right there and then. Pretty much an asshole otherwise. That said; that's _her_ side of the story and while I'm not _not_ believing her, I'm also not making any judgement on Pretty.
- klyrs 5y ago
  She was unable to resist his advances, for various reasons listed. While it doesn't sound like she beat him off with a stick, it does sounds like she shut down, dissociated, and didn't say "no." Consent isn't presumed; consent is not the lack of a "no", consent is the presence of free, ongoing, and enthusiastic yes. Even if she reluctantly agreed, it consent wasn't freely given in light of the power imbalance and intoxication. Even if she reluctantly agreed, that isn't enthusiastic consent. Even if she wanted sex, but he refused to use the protection she wanted him to use, that's not ongoing consent. But she clearly didn't want sex with this dude; not like that
ALittleLight 5y ago
Slightly later she writes "I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all consensual". I think it is something of a philosophical issue to debate about whether you can think you consented and later determine you didn't. It's also strange to me that it takes months and consultation with a therapist to determine if you did or did not consent.
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Or seen one firsthand? People can be made to believe all sorts of things that aren't true by charismatic or powerful people. It may take them some time to realize they are being tricked or abused. You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe you had.
  - aphextron 5y ago
    >You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe you had. There has to be a line drawn somewhere when you start talking about hardcore felony level criminal accusations though. Should anyone who's ever had an (at the time) consensual intimate encounter then have cart blanche to hold accusations of rape over you for the rest of your life? I mean just picture this guy's POV for a moment. You think you had a consensual relationship with someone, who then continued having friendly relations with you for months afterwards. Then out of nowhere you're being called a rapist on the internet. I get that the guy is a total creep. But it's absolutely terrifying to think that being in a crappy relationship can land you in prison now.
    - Pfhreak 5y ago
      To be clear, that guy held several positions of power over her. Even in the most absolutely charitable reading, which is that this is a bad relationship (a reading I strongly disagree with) -- if you hold significant power over someone, you shouldn't be entering into casual sexual relationships. If you want to pursue that relationship, it can be done, but not carelessly. This isn't a situation where a one night stand went awkwardly, there are several additional factors here.

Sex was had while she did not consent, she mentions in the fifth paragraph.

the-dude 5y ago

That is not what she says there. She says she felt uncomfortable and taken advantage of.

boblax 5y ago
She is definitely the kind of woman where a man shouldn't be making such advances. Let her be the acting party. She would have been telling another story if she were on top and had taken the initiative. One of the simplest ways for a man to avoid the problems of consent where he suspects there may be is to be the one from whom consent is needed. That is the absolute safest other than leaving. If you as a man attempt to get consent that may not be something you're able to obtain. She might be intoxicated and unable to consent. You might not know that. However what's safe is to let anyone initiate sex with you while you remain passive and let them have sex with you. If you leave then I would strongly advise to say it is because you are feeling sick and think it's something you ate. Go to the toilet first and say you have the runs. That will cushion her pride and make her just glad you left. No chance of something mean-spirited.
Pfhreak 5y ago
Being taken advantage of while intoxicated and while there was a significant power imbalance between the two. She was not in a position to give consent there -- being intoxicated, being in a place that was being rented Pretty (and she could risk being out on the street if she refused), having no money and luggage on hand, being the mentee of Pretty (or believing she could be), etc. She ended up crying and panicking. That generally isn't the outcome of a consensual relationship.
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  It definitely sounds like he abused his position and did a horrible thing, but the thing he did is not rape (assuming OP story is 100% accurate description of events). If 2 people are intoxicated and have sex, do they both rape each other? If one person holds more power than the other, while both are intoxicated, is it just a one-way rape? Or is it still a two-way rape, where one person just "rapes a bit more" and the other person "rapes a bit less"? What if the person who had power ends up regretting sex afterwards and cries, does it "turn the tables" and cause the rapist to suddenly become the victim of rape, after the fact? Yes, she was drunk. Yes, she later regretted having sex. These things alone do not mean that rape was committed. As far as I can tell, she is not referring to the events as "rape", so maybe you shouldn't either.
  - Pfhreak 5y ago
    > she is not referring to the events as "rape", so maybe you shouldn't either. Can you point to where I used that word?
    - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
      > Can you point to where I used that word? Sure! I'm particularly referring to this exchange upstream. First, mirekrusin says: > Rape is doing it, not insisting, I think. ...And then you respond to this comment in a way that indicates that rape occurred: > Sex was had while she did not consent, she mentions in the fifth paragraph. Here is a direct link to your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26961759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26961759
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  I don't know what the law is in Germany, but here in California the threshold for alcohol isn't intoxication it's incapacitation. What happens if two intoxicated people have sex with each other? They're both simultaneously rape victim but also rapists?
- esarbe 5y ago
  They were both intoxicated and Pretty is not a very big name, not even in the Scala community. It's not as if we were talking about Martin Odersky. The guy gives talks from time to time and contributes code to some projects. That's it. > She was not in a position to give consent there [...] Of course she was. If all the stated facts in her account are true, then Pretty was behaving like an asshole (In setting her up and then trying to get in her knickers). But she was absolutely in a position to consent. Otherwise you make it very easy for people to shed responsibility. Being in a shitty position doesn't absolve you from bad decisions. > She ended up crying and panicking. If that's true, Petty should have stopped right there and then. Pretty much an asshole otherwise. That said; that's _her_ side of the story and while I'm not _not_ believing her, I'm also not making any judgement on Pretty.
klyrs 5y ago
She was unable to resist his advances, for various reasons listed. While it doesn't sound like she beat him off with a stick, it does sounds like she shut down, dissociated, and didn't say "no." Consent isn't presumed; consent is not the lack of a "no", consent is the presence of free, ongoing, and enthusiastic yes. Even if she reluctantly agreed, it consent wasn't freely given in light of the power imbalance and intoxication. Even if she reluctantly agreed, that isn't enthusiastic consent. Even if she wanted sex, but he refused to use the protection she wanted him to use, that's not ongoing consent. But she clearly didn't want sex with this dude; not like that

ALittleLight 5y ago

Slightly later she writes "I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all consensual". I think it is something of a philosophical issue to debate about whether you can think you consented and later determine you didn't. It's also strange to me that it takes months and consultation with a therapist to determine if you did or did not consent.

Pfhreak 5y ago
Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Or seen one firsthand? People can be made to believe all sorts of things that aren't true by charismatic or powerful people. It may take them some time to realize they are being tricked or abused. You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe you had.
- aphextron 5y ago
  >You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe you had. There has to be a line drawn somewhere when you start talking about hardcore felony level criminal accusations though. Should anyone who's ever had an (at the time) consensual intimate encounter then have cart blanche to hold accusations of rape over you for the rest of your life? I mean just picture this guy's POV for a moment. You think you had a consensual relationship with someone, who then continued having friendly relations with you for months afterwards. Then out of nowhere you're being called a rapist on the internet. I get that the guy is a total creep. But it's absolutely terrifying to think that being in a crappy relationship can land you in prison now.
  - Pfhreak 5y ago
    To be clear, that guy held several positions of power over her. Even in the most absolutely charitable reading, which is that this is a bad relationship (a reading I strongly disagree with) -- if you hold significant power over someone, you shouldn't be entering into casual sexual relationships. If you want to pursue that relationship, it can be done, but not carelessly. This isn't a situation where a one night stand went awkwardly, there are several additional factors here.