8 ms·

Will I get lots of rotten tomatoes telling, that this is a huge waste of money? Chips production is one thing, but the whole ecosystem matters. So these chips

by lnsru 6y ago

Will I get lots of rotten tomatoes telling, that this is a huge waste of money? Chips production is one thing, but the whole ecosystem matters. So these chips produced in Europe must be sent back to Asia for integration in final products. Or a miracle will happen and European Union will resurrect manufacturing? I doubt, because manufacturing means missing climate goals.

syshum 6y ago
It will be the mythical green manufacturing jobs...
chrisseaton 6y ago
> So these chips produced in Europe must be sent back to Asia for integration in final products. Or a miracle will happen and European Union will resurrect manufacturing? I don't understand - do you think there is no manufacturing in Europe? To give a concrete example - some European car factories are shut down due to... lack of chips.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >I don't understand - do you think there is no manufacturing in Europe? A lot of minor manufacturing, plus a lot of assembly to be able to call the final product e.g. "german made" and have the associated tax-cuts...
  - eastendguy 6y ago
    Minor manufacturing like Airbus? What would be "major" manufacturing in your logic? I see the EU on the same level as the US. Do you disagree? And if so, why?
    - coldtea 6y ago
      From Airbus own words: "Airbus values not only its relationship with airlines and helicopter operators in China, it also appreciates the enormous value offered by Chinese industry; components produced by Chinese companies are currently found on all production Airbus commercial jetliner types."
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        What point do you think you're making with that quote? They use Chinese components... to manufacture planes... in Europe.
        coldtea 6y ago
        What point did you think I was making initially? "plus a lot of assembly to be able to call the final product e.g. "german made" and have the associated tax-cuts..." Or, in your words: "They use Chinese components... to manufacture planes... in Europe."
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        I don't think you can intelligently describe building aeroplanes as just 'assembly' work.
        eastendguy 6y ago
        All _key_ components for large airplanes are made either in the EU, Israel, CA or USA. By contrast, the Chinese COMAC airplane consists largely of of imported parts.
    - lottin 6y ago
      The EU's industrial sector is larger than that of the US as percentage of GDP (25% vs 20%). Both below Japan (30%) and China (40%). [1] [1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/html/index.en.html
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > A lot of minor manufacturing Europe is the second largest manufacturer of cars for example. And half the world's planes are made here. That's not minor. > plus a lot of assembly Right... assembling chips into things for example. Wasn't that the point? The chips don't need to be sent to Asia in order to put them in products.
    - lnsru 6y ago
      Well I have car made in Germany, I don’t own a plane. But most of my possessions are manufactured in Asia. 2 Philips displays are made in China as the label on the back says. Apple phones too. Computers in China and Taiwan.
      - raphaelj 6y ago
        Assembled in China would be more accurate. Modern supply chains are really complex. Your laptop might uses chips manufactured in Taiwan by Dutch lithography machines, have a screen build in South Korea using German automation devices, run on software made in the USA, all shipped on a Japanese-build vessel.
  - rapsey 6y ago
    Assembly of parts mostly made in other countries of europe...
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Germany has a trade surplus to those countries as well.
      - rapsey 6y ago
        So?
eastendguy 6y ago
Europe has plenty of manufacturing. >I doubt, because manufacturing means missing climate goals. So you are saying a chip factory can not be powered by green energy. Why? Taiwan does it, too: https://www.evwind.es/2020/07/08/orsted-taiwans-tsmc-sign-worlds-largest-wind-power-corporate-deal/75669 https://www.evwind.es/2020/07/08/orsted-taiwans-tsmc-sign-wo...
- Areading314 6y ago
  More the things containing chips like plastic widgets and appliances
  - slt2021 6y ago
    Europe is #1 in recycling and produces far less waste per capita than US
dijit 6y ago
We actually do have a lot of manufacturing in the EU; maybe not cheap plastic gizmos that you find at the store, but we have a relatively rich automotive industry which reaches into aerospace engineering and agriculture.
- saveduaclick 6y ago
  A manufacturing network that is closing down. Export market shares in the world keep falling. The best Europe can do is to protect whatever they can keep of the past glories. That should be good enough!
  - s_dev 6y ago
    German exports alone nearly match the United States despite the US having a far larger population and economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  You do not really have much manufacturing in the EU. What you have is people working on the design of things that are manufactured in China. Just like the US, which in terms of value-add is the world's largest manufacturer, but in terms of actually manufacturing stuff, not so much. There is also some final component assembly (but that is not a major portion of value add), it is used to capture subsidies and claim that stuff is "made in X" when it is assembled from parts made all over the world. The problem is that this is critically depending on IP -- e.g. your designs not being stolen -- and also there are some industries where manufacturing knowledge is the value-add rather than the design. In those situations, Europe can't compete because the factories are elsewhere. America suffers from the same issues and is also falling behind, so this is a general issue with "the west".
  - dijit 6y ago
    If you’re interested you should really take a trip to Eindhoven, NL. Plenty of actual fabrication of electronics is happening there.
throwaway4good 6y ago
Highend chip fab got to be big security / geo politics due to the US-China tech war. TSMC is under a perceived threat from China, and the US has prohibted the Chinese from using TSMC. This leaves a lot of business open to take. The US wants it back on their soil with the TSMC plant in Arizona. The Europeans want something similar. After all we have ASML here in the middle of western europe and god knows how many mid-sized factories. Surely this is not a stupid idea. Perhaps we can make the chips for Huawei here in Germany so everyone knows the phones and routers are safe and secure to use.
- qznc 6y ago
  https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/bosch-reaches-milestone-on-the-way-to-opening-new-wafer-fab-in-dresden-225600.html https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/bosch-reaches-... I'm not sure how those factories compare though.
totalZero 6y ago
It's pretty easy to send chips as freight. They are small and valuable, so the price density per unit volume (or specific price per unit weight) is high. They don't fall apart if you jostle them and they survive at lots of different temperatures. If we can ship bananas from Guatemala to Portland before they turn yellow, I'm certain that we could send chips from a Western fab to an Eastern assembly plant. I think the bigger challenge is perhaps getting the boules/substrates. My understanding is that the best ones come from Japan, and if your fab yield is low, you're getting far more raw inputs than finished outputs. One solution to that problem would be to make the silicon crystal in the same region as the fabs. Another would be to set up a distributor corporation that buys in massive bulk to get shipping costs down, then slowly sells off inventory to manufacturers. There are some essential chemicals involved in semiconductor fabrication as well, but I think you can probably find those in any region of the first world.
nine_k 6y ago
The funny thing is that the key machines to produce chips are built in Germany and Netherlands. Not in Korea, not on Taiwan. The robots that assemble the electronic circuits are also largely built in EU. (And, of course, in Japan, too.) What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. It was the nimbleness of that company, the willingness to move fast and make things available fast. Paradoxically, less red tape and less corporate shenanigans. Cheap labor? Maybe, but it did not appear to be the major factor, and wages at Foxconn were / are not as low, by EU standards even. And this is compared to US; in Germany, things would be even slower, to say nothing of France (which is a real industrial powerhouse nevertheless).
- bsder 6y ago
  > What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. Um, the CNC machines that iPhone production uses are actually made in the US and shipped to China because the Chinese CNC machines can't handle the tolerance. So, why is Apple shipping it there then? Cheap labor is the answer. And, why is Apple starting to ship production away from China? Cheap labor is still the answer. As we found out, the supply chains in China weren't that robust. You can put them wherever without a lot of problem and they take about 12 months to come up to speed. That's not very long at all in the manufacturing world.
  - nine_k 6y ago
    It appears that it wasn't the cost per se, but the colossal desire of the Chinese companies, with the help of Chinese government, to get Apple's business. This let Apple meet pretty crazy deadlines: https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen... Maybe a price that would allow such speed in an American company exists, but likely it's sky-high.
    - bsder 6y ago
      > Maybe a price that would allow such speed in an American company exists, but likely it's sky-high. The Chinese one was sky-high, too. It's just that the Chinese government ate the cost.

by lnsru 6y ago

syshum 6y ago

It will be the mythical green manufacturing jobs...

chrisseaton 6y ago

> So these chips produced in Europe must be sent back to Asia for integration in final products. Or a miracle will happen and European Union will resurrect manufacturing? I don't understand - do you think there is no manufacturing in Europe? To give a concrete example - some European car factories are shut down due to... lack of chips.

coldtea 6y ago
>I don't understand - do you think there is no manufacturing in Europe? A lot of minor manufacturing, plus a lot of assembly to be able to call the final product e.g. "german made" and have the associated tax-cuts...
- eastendguy 6y ago
  Minor manufacturing like Airbus? What would be "major" manufacturing in your logic? I see the EU on the same level as the US. Do you disagree? And if so, why?
  - coldtea 6y ago
    From Airbus own words: "Airbus values not only its relationship with airlines and helicopter operators in China, it also appreciates the enormous value offered by Chinese industry; components produced by Chinese companies are currently found on all production Airbus commercial jetliner types."
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      What point do you think you're making with that quote? They use Chinese components... to manufacture planes... in Europe.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        What point did you think I was making initially? "plus a lot of assembly to be able to call the final product e.g. "german made" and have the associated tax-cuts..." Or, in your words: "They use Chinese components... to manufacture planes... in Europe."
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        I don't think you can intelligently describe building aeroplanes as just 'assembly' work.
        eastendguy 6y ago
        All _key_ components for large airplanes are made either in the EU, Israel, CA or USA. By contrast, the Chinese COMAC airplane consists largely of of imported parts.
  - lottin 6y ago
    The EU's industrial sector is larger than that of the US as percentage of GDP (25% vs 20%). Both below Japan (30%) and China (40%). [1] [1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/html/index.en.html
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > A lot of minor manufacturing Europe is the second largest manufacturer of cars for example. And half the world's planes are made here. That's not minor. > plus a lot of assembly Right... assembling chips into things for example. Wasn't that the point? The chips don't need to be sent to Asia in order to put them in products.
  - lnsru 6y ago
    Well I have car made in Germany, I don’t own a plane. But most of my possessions are manufactured in Asia. 2 Philips displays are made in China as the label on the back says. Apple phones too. Computers in China and Taiwan.
    - raphaelj 6y ago
      Assembled in China would be more accurate. Modern supply chains are really complex. Your laptop might uses chips manufactured in Taiwan by Dutch lithography machines, have a screen build in South Korea using German automation devices, run on software made in the USA, all shipped on a Japanese-build vessel.
- rapsey 6y ago
  Assembly of parts mostly made in other countries of europe...
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Germany has a trade surplus to those countries as well.
    - rapsey 6y ago
      So?

eastendguy 6y ago

Europe has plenty of manufacturing. >I doubt, because manufacturing means missing climate goals. So you are saying a chip factory can not be powered by green energy. Why? Taiwan does it, too: https://www.evwind.es/2020/07/08/orsted-taiwans-tsmc-sign-worlds-largest-wind-power-corporate-deal/75669 https://www.evwind.es/2020/07/08/orsted-taiwans-tsmc-sign-wo...

Areading314 6y ago
More the things containing chips like plastic widgets and appliances
- slt2021 6y ago
  Europe is #1 in recycling and produces far less waste per capita than US

dijit 6y ago

We actually do have a lot of manufacturing in the EU; maybe not cheap plastic gizmos that you find at the store, but we have a relatively rich automotive industry which reaches into aerospace engineering and agriculture.

saveduaclick 6y ago
A manufacturing network that is closing down. Export market shares in the world keep falling. The best Europe can do is to protect whatever they can keep of the past glories. That should be good enough!
- s_dev 6y ago
  German exports alone nearly match the United States despite the US having a far larger population and economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports
rsj_hn 6y ago
You do not really have much manufacturing in the EU. What you have is people working on the design of things that are manufactured in China. Just like the US, which in terms of value-add is the world's largest manufacturer, but in terms of actually manufacturing stuff, not so much. There is also some final component assembly (but that is not a major portion of value add), it is used to capture subsidies and claim that stuff is "made in X" when it is assembled from parts made all over the world. The problem is that this is critically depending on IP -- e.g. your designs not being stolen -- and also there are some industries where manufacturing knowledge is the value-add rather than the design. In those situations, Europe can't compete because the factories are elsewhere. America suffers from the same issues and is also falling behind, so this is a general issue with "the west".
- dijit 6y ago
  If you’re interested you should really take a trip to Eindhoven, NL. Plenty of actual fabrication of electronics is happening there.

throwaway4good 6y ago

Highend chip fab got to be big security / geo politics due to the US-China tech war. TSMC is under a perceived threat from China, and the US has prohibted the Chinese from using TSMC. This leaves a lot of business open to take. The US wants it back on their soil with the TSMC plant in Arizona. The Europeans want something similar. After all we have ASML here in the middle of western europe and god knows how many mid-sized factories. Surely this is not a stupid idea. Perhaps we can make the chips for Huawei here in Germany so everyone knows the phones and routers are safe and secure to use.

qznc 6y ago
https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/bosch-reaches-milestone-on-the-way-to-opening-new-wafer-fab-in-dresden-225600.html https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/bosch-reaches-... I'm not sure how those factories compare though.

totalZero 6y ago

It's pretty easy to send chips as freight. They are small and valuable, so the price density per unit volume (or specific price per unit weight) is high. They don't fall apart if you jostle them and they survive at lots of different temperatures. If we can ship bananas from Guatemala to Portland before they turn yellow, I'm certain that we could send chips from a Western fab to an Eastern assembly plant. I think the bigger challenge is perhaps getting the boules/substrates. My understanding is that the best ones come from Japan, and if your fab yield is low, you're getting far more raw inputs than finished outputs. One solution to that problem would be to make the silicon crystal in the same region as the fabs. Another would be to set up a distributor corporation that buys in massive bulk to get shipping costs down, then slowly sells off inventory to manufacturers. There are some essential chemicals involved in semiconductor fabrication as well, but I think you can probably find those in any region of the first world.

nine_k 6y ago

The funny thing is that the key machines to produce chips are built in Germany and Netherlands. Not in Korea, not on Taiwan. The robots that assemble the electronic circuits are also largely built in EU. (And, of course, in Japan, too.) What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. It was the nimbleness of that company, the willingness to move fast and make things available fast. Paradoxically, less red tape and less corporate shenanigans. Cheap labor? Maybe, but it did not appear to be the major factor, and wages at Foxconn were / are not as low, by EU standards even. And this is compared to US; in Germany, things would be even slower, to say nothing of France (which is a real industrial powerhouse nevertheless).

bsder 6y ago
> What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. Um, the CNC machines that iPhone production uses are actually made in the US and shipped to China because the Chinese CNC machines can't handle the tolerance. So, why is Apple shipping it there then? Cheap labor is the answer. And, why is Apple starting to ship production away from China? Cheap labor is still the answer. As we found out, the supply chains in China weren't that robust. You can put them wherever without a lot of problem and they take about 12 months to come up to speed. That's not very long at all in the manufacturing world.
- nine_k 6y ago
  It appears that it wasn't the cost per se, but the colossal desire of the Chinese companies, with the help of Chinese government, to get Apple's business. This let Apple meet pretty crazy deadlines: https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen... Maybe a price that would allow such speed in an American company exists, but likely it's sky-high.
  - bsder 6y ago
    > Maybe a price that would allow such speed in an American company exists, but likely it's sky-high. The Chinese one was sky-high, too. It's just that the Chinese government ate the cost.