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Can we imagine a future where we're using both a hammer and a screwdriver, depending on situation, without hammer-only and screwdriver-only people yelling at ea

Can we imagine a future where we're using both a hammer and a screwdriver, depending on situation, without hammer-only and screwdriver-only people yelling at each other?

VectorLock 5y ago
If only there were some kind of forum where people could debate which situations are most appropriate for screwdriver and which are most appropriate for hammer and respect each others opinions while learning new things.
- bogwog 5y ago
  > and respect each others opinions while learning new things. So basically, this hypothetical forum is not on the internet.
jjoonathan 5y ago
If I hadn't frequently been given the back of a screw driver and tasked with banging in a nail, I wouldn't be complaining. I just want a $2 hammer on the shelf, is that so much to ask?
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  Hum... Let's not pretend that the discourse has been dominated for decades by people claiming that print-debuging should go away and that anybody using it is incompetent, and that the reaction was nearly all people just saying "nope, that's stupid, print debug if perfectly fine" without any complaint about anything else. It's perfectly fine for you to want a step-based debugger. In fact, if there's anything not fine is that you should probably want more than that, but don't even get to see better tools around. It's great that somebody took the time to develop better tools and is trying to sell it... But, let's stop attacking print, because it's a perfectly fine tool.
db48x 5y ago
I agree with the sentiment, but the analogy is not a perfect one. Hammers and screwdrivers are alike in that they are both simple tools that do different jobs. Meanwhile we’re talking about tools that do the same job, but of different capabilities. Log or printf debugging is like a shovel, RR is like a steam shovel, and Pernosco is almost like the entire railroad logistics system set up by John Stevens for digging out the Panama canal. He completely rebuilt the rail system so that trains were moving past the shovels in the cuts continuously. Each shovel would simply unload dirt on whatever train car was closest. The trains in the cut moved slowly and never stopped, so there was always a car available. At the fill sites where the dirt was unloaded, he built what was effectively a huge plow system that would scrape the dirt off of the flat–bed cars all in one go (The French just had hundreds of men climb into the cars with shovels to dig the dirt out of the cars, effectively handling every shovel–full twice). The result was like a continuous conveyor belt over 50 miles long. He also built towns, stores, machine shops, water treatment and sewage systems for the towns at either end of the canal, and allowed Gorgas to virtually eliminate mosquitoes from the canal zone. Pernosco is more like the entire logistics system than the steam shovel, though there are still a few rough edges and some features that I wish it had.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  > Pernosco is more like the entire logistics system than the steam shovel Sometimes you don't need the entire railroad logistics system if you're only removing a single shrub.
  - db48x 5y ago
    True, but nobody will take your shovel away. The folks building the Panama canal had plenty of shovels to go with the logistics system. I still use print debugging from time to time, if the problem seems simple enough or if rr or Pernosco isn’t available.
anthonygd 5y ago
That's crazy talk.

Can we imagine a future where we're using both a hammer and a screwdriver, depending on situation, without hammer-only and screwdriver-only people yelling at each other?

VectorLock 5y ago

If only there were some kind of forum where people could debate which situations are most appropriate for screwdriver and which are most appropriate for hammer and respect each others opinions while learning new things.

bogwog 5y ago
> and respect each others opinions while learning new things. So basically, this hypothetical forum is not on the internet.

jjoonathan 5y ago

If I hadn't frequently been given the back of a screw driver and tasked with banging in a nail, I wouldn't be complaining. I just want a $2 hammer on the shelf, is that so much to ask?

marcosdumay 5y ago
Hum... Let's not pretend that the discourse has been dominated for decades by people claiming that print-debuging should go away and that anybody using it is incompetent, and that the reaction was nearly all people just saying "nope, that's stupid, print debug if perfectly fine" without any complaint about anything else. It's perfectly fine for you to want a step-based debugger. In fact, if there's anything not fine is that you should probably want more than that, but don't even get to see better tools around. It's great that somebody took the time to develop better tools and is trying to sell it... But, let's stop attacking print, because it's a perfectly fine tool.

db48x 5y ago

I agree with the sentiment, but the analogy is not a perfect one. Hammers and screwdrivers are alike in that they are both simple tools that do different jobs. Meanwhile we’re talking about tools that do the same job, but of different capabilities. Log or printf debugging is like a shovel, RR is like a steam shovel, and Pernosco is almost like the entire railroad logistics system set up by John Stevens for digging out the Panama canal. He completely rebuilt the rail system so that trains were moving past the shovels in the cuts continuously. Each shovel would simply unload dirt on whatever train car was closest. The trains in the cut moved slowly and never stopped, so there was always a car available. At the fill sites where the dirt was unloaded, he built what was effectively a huge plow system that would scrape the dirt off of the flat–bed cars all in one go (The French just had hundreds of men climb into the cars with shovels to dig the dirt out of the cars, effectively handling every shovel–full twice). The result was like a continuous conveyor belt over 50 miles long. He also built towns, stores, machine shops, water treatment and sewage systems for the towns at either end of the canal, and allowed Gorgas to virtually eliminate mosquitoes from the canal zone. Pernosco is more like the entire logistics system than the steam shovel, though there are still a few rough edges and some features that I wish it had.

xboxnolifes 5y ago
> Pernosco is more like the entire logistics system than the steam shovel Sometimes you don't need the entire railroad logistics system if you're only removing a single shrub.
- db48x 5y ago
  True, but nobody will take your shovel away. The folks building the Panama canal had plenty of shovels to go with the logistics system. I still use print debugging from time to time, if the problem seems simple enough or if rr or Pernosco isn’t available.

anthonygd 5y ago

That's crazy talk.