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> But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying women and men the same for doing the same job?" and "are our recruiting practices leading to a non-dive

> But to others, "politics at work" means "are we paying women and men the same for doing the same job?" and "are our recruiting practices leading to a non-diverse workforce and missing out on great people who should work here?" and "what problems does our company sole, and for whom?". These are really important questions. Why wouldn't you want to bring them up at work? I really detest such things, and the "problem" is easily solved by "I don't give a fuck". I don't give a fuck if you are male or female, or anything in between, if you are, black, white, yellow or whatever, neither do I care about your sexual preferences, or your religion. And neither should anyone else care. I do care about how well you can do your job, how well you fit in our team, etc. I helped hire most of our team members, and by luck they are very diverse in all of the above mentions traits. But who should care? This is 2021, nobody should give a fuck about those things anymore. If you do, in either direction, you're part of the problem, not the solution.

peteretep 6y ago
> I don't give a fuck Some people would say you have the _privilege_ to not give a fuck
- koonsolo 6y ago
  Yes, we live in a privileged society where all people are considered equal. People who practice positive or negative discrimination should get with the program.
  - abenga 6y ago
    Discrimination does not need to be overt, mostly it's insidious, cloaked in vague statements such as "culture fit". And no, not everyone is considered equal. There are many (or at the very least non-zero) racists, sexists, homophobes, and bigots of many other forms in the world. Thinking that that does not affect how those in power go about their business is willful ignorance, capricious heartlessness, or gleeful complicity. Just because it is no longer possible to actively voice discriminatory opinions, or that laws exist to ostensibly stop discrimination does not stop its effects, and sticking our heads in the sand does not stop them.
  - educaysean 6y ago
    Where in the US can I find that society? I'm having trouble being convinced when trying to reconcile this with the waves of anti-asian violence that's been tearing our community apart for the last few weeks. Is it really difficult to admit that we don't yet live in a perfect society?
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      > Where in the US can I find that society? Any western civilization has equality of individuals as one of their core values, next to democracy, separation of powers, freedom of speech, etc. > Is it really difficult to admit that we don't yet live in a perfect society? We will never live in a perfect society. That's why I say people should get with the program. Anti-asian violence is a crime that can and should be prosecuted.
      - educaysean 6y ago
        So your entire argument falls down to: government says we're all equal, therefore equality achieved. It's as if everyone was simply making a giant fuss about racism and feminism that never existed for decades.
- bart_spoon 6y ago
  "Privilege" has just become a rhetorical get-out-of-jail-free card for shutting down any argument with no actual substance.
ck425 6y ago
That's a position of privilege. Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of indifference.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  I am not indifferent towards people who discriminate, whether that is positive or negative discrimination. But thankfully those people are a minority.
  - motoxpro 6y ago
    I mean, I think this is like saying it's O.K. to not care about climate change because we have done enough and it's not a problem anymore. i.e. It's way better than it was and it doesn't effect me so I can live my life however I want, I am not worried about the future generations that may have that problem because of my actions. In this situation, you are saying it doesn't effect you so you have the privelege of not caring. Totally fair! Wish everyone were in that position.
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      You don't seem to get my point: everyone should care about the environment, and nobody should care about the color of your skin. Edit: let me be more specific. In a company, I don't want to hear "Are the women compensated the same as the men?", I want to hear "Is everyone fairly compensated?". There is a very big difference between the 2.
      - ljm 6y ago
        I see what you're getting at, and yeah that sort of just world would be nice. You could ask "is everyone fairly compensated?" now though, and many people would not think to consider the various disparities that exist - the current system, to their mind, is fair. So you have to look at the data, gather the facts, and force the issue: --- Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes But, it looks like a woman is paid 20% less than a man for the same position. Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes. (Insert sexist reasoning here). Are women compensated the same as men? No. Why is that fair? --- You could repeat this same thought process for so many other examples, where the general concept of fairness is rooted in inequality, bias, and prejudice.
ryanbrunner 6y ago
"How well you fit in our team", especially when applied to things like interviewing and hiring, often has a strong correlation with "are you not a member of an underrepresented group", often unintentionally.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  That is strange. When I do interviews, I will look if this is a nice person, if this is a professional person. I don't really think about which "group" they might belong to.
  - AlexandrB 6y ago
    Your definition of what a "nice person" looks like may be predicated on the breadth of your experience with different people. For many (most?) people, the closer someone is to what their friends/family look and act like the "nicer" they are. That's not a condemnation of you or anyone else - it's normal. I think some humility is in order. It's possible that one is a perfect, unbiased judge of character. On the other hand it's possible that one is just human, with a predilection for equating "like me and my friends" to "nice" or "professional".
- 1123581321 6y ago
  It seems not in this case, as this person hired a diverse team as measured by gender, race and sexual orientation. I'd venture there are multiple approaches to seeking interpersonal compatibility and some of those approaches tend to have better outcomes than others. It seems good to try to learn from people who practice those more successful approaches.
Kye 6y ago
I've seen too many people say stuff like this then go on to blatantly discriminate to think people who say it are self-aware enough about unconscious biases to not discriminate. There is stuff everyone picks up along the way to becoming an adult that they didn't have any say in picking up, but it's there anyway, and it's not going to go away if you pretend like it's not there. Personally, there's a part of me deep down that does want to discriminate, and I have to kick that part's ass any time it rears its ugly head. Even being part of several marginalized identities is no guard against it.

peteretep 6y ago

> I don't give a fuck Some people would say you have the _privilege_ to not give a fuck

koonsolo 6y ago
Yes, we live in a privileged society where all people are considered equal. People who practice positive or negative discrimination should get with the program.
- abenga 6y ago
  Discrimination does not need to be overt, mostly it's insidious, cloaked in vague statements such as "culture fit". And no, not everyone is considered equal. There are many (or at the very least non-zero) racists, sexists, homophobes, and bigots of many other forms in the world. Thinking that that does not affect how those in power go about their business is willful ignorance, capricious heartlessness, or gleeful complicity. Just because it is no longer possible to actively voice discriminatory opinions, or that laws exist to ostensibly stop discrimination does not stop its effects, and sticking our heads in the sand does not stop them.
- educaysean 6y ago
  Where in the US can I find that society? I'm having trouble being convinced when trying to reconcile this with the waves of anti-asian violence that's been tearing our community apart for the last few weeks. Is it really difficult to admit that we don't yet live in a perfect society?
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    > Where in the US can I find that society? Any western civilization has equality of individuals as one of their core values, next to democracy, separation of powers, freedom of speech, etc. > Is it really difficult to admit that we don't yet live in a perfect society? We will never live in a perfect society. That's why I say people should get with the program. Anti-asian violence is a crime that can and should be prosecuted.
    - educaysean 6y ago
      So your entire argument falls down to: government says we're all equal, therefore equality achieved. It's as if everyone was simply making a giant fuss about racism and feminism that never existed for decades.
bart_spoon 6y ago
"Privilege" has just become a rhetorical get-out-of-jail-free card for shutting down any argument with no actual substance.

ck425 6y ago

That's a position of privilege. Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of indifference.

koonsolo 6y ago
I am not indifferent towards people who discriminate, whether that is positive or negative discrimination. But thankfully those people are a minority.
- motoxpro 6y ago
  I mean, I think this is like saying it's O.K. to not care about climate change because we have done enough and it's not a problem anymore. i.e. It's way better than it was and it doesn't effect me so I can live my life however I want, I am not worried about the future generations that may have that problem because of my actions. In this situation, you are saying it doesn't effect you so you have the privelege of not caring. Totally fair! Wish everyone were in that position.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    You don't seem to get my point: everyone should care about the environment, and nobody should care about the color of your skin. Edit: let me be more specific. In a company, I don't want to hear "Are the women compensated the same as the men?", I want to hear "Is everyone fairly compensated?". There is a very big difference between the 2.
    - ljm 6y ago
      I see what you're getting at, and yeah that sort of just world would be nice. You could ask "is everyone fairly compensated?" now though, and many people would not think to consider the various disparities that exist - the current system, to their mind, is fair. So you have to look at the data, gather the facts, and force the issue: --- Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes But, it looks like a woman is paid 20% less than a man for the same position. Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes. (Insert sexist reasoning here). Are women compensated the same as men? No. Why is that fair? --- You could repeat this same thought process for so many other examples, where the general concept of fairness is rooted in inequality, bias, and prejudice.

ryanbrunner 6y ago

"How well you fit in our team", especially when applied to things like interviewing and hiring, often has a strong correlation with "are you not a member of an underrepresented group", often unintentionally.

koonsolo 6y ago
That is strange. When I do interviews, I will look if this is a nice person, if this is a professional person. I don't really think about which "group" they might belong to.
- AlexandrB 6y ago
  Your definition of what a "nice person" looks like may be predicated on the breadth of your experience with different people. For many (most?) people, the closer someone is to what their friends/family look and act like the "nicer" they are. That's not a condemnation of you or anyone else - it's normal. I think some humility is in order. It's possible that one is a perfect, unbiased judge of character. On the other hand it's possible that one is just human, with a predilection for equating "like me and my friends" to "nice" or "professional".
1123581321 6y ago
It seems not in this case, as this person hired a diverse team as measured by gender, race and sexual orientation. I'd venture there are multiple approaches to seeking interpersonal compatibility and some of those approaches tend to have better outcomes than others. It seems good to try to learn from people who practice those more successful approaches.

Kye 6y ago

I've seen too many people say stuff like this then go on to blatantly discriminate to think people who say it are self-aware enough about unconscious biases to not discriminate. There is stuff everyone picks up along the way to becoming an adult that they didn't have any say in picking up, but it's there anyway, and it's not going to go away if you pretend like it's not there. Personally, there's a part of me deep down that does want to discriminate, and I have to kick that part's ass any time it rears its ugly head. Even being part of several marginalized identities is no guard against it.