5 ms·

Thanks to the pandemic, Ivermectin, a widely-used anti-parasite that won the Nobel prize for virtually eliminating river blindness (https://www.nobelprize.org/p

by bbb2019 5y ago

Thanks to the pandemic, Ivermectin, a widely-used anti-parasite that won the Nobel prize for virtually eliminating river blindness (https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/ https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-releas...), a medicine on the the WHO essential medicine list, which has shown broad-spectrum antiviral properties in the lab (zika, dengue, west nile virus, covid and more https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7564151/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7564151/), has also proven very effective against preventing and treating sars-cov-2 virus in vivo: https://ivmmeta.com/ https://ivmmeta.com/ The probability that ivermectin generated results as positive as the 52 studies to date is estimated to be 1 in 85 trillion (p = 0.000000000000012). A doctor who thought they had covid, took ivermectin and turned out their covid results were negative, but it still aided their recovery for the flu. Dr. Pierre Kory gave an excellent discussion on the latest scientific findings of ivermectin as as a treatment for covid and general antiviral treatment on John Campbell's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19DPijOoVKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19DPijOoVKE Personally, I think a drug with 37 years safety data makes a more promising candidate than a novel therapeutic that is rushed to the market.

sankoz 5y ago
Looks like Ivermectin has generated a lot of buzz that many are self medicating. The first link that google throws up when searching for Ivermectin is the FDA page "Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19" https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-shoul...
- herenow2021 5y ago
  The FDA is being criminally negligent with their warning. They admit in their press-release after 1 year of the pandemic, they still have not evaluated the data showing ivermectin treats covid: "The FDA has not reviewed data to support use of ivermectin in COVID-19 patients to treat or to prevent COVID-19". That's their job. If they haven't evaluated the data, they should not attack a treatment that saves lives when there are 6 independent meta-analyses showing it works (Bryant, Hill, Kory, Lawrie, Nardelli meta-analysis links are available this page: https://ivmmeta.com/ https://ivmmeta.com/)
- isolli 5y ago
  I have no opinion on Ivermectin, but I find it odd that the FDA keeps implicitly recommending remdesivir [0] while the WHO (together with several European countries) recommends against it [1]. I believe the FDA is compromising its credibility, which is sad. FDA: "The FDA has approved the antiviral drug Veklury (remdesivir) for adults and certain pediatric patients with COVID-19 who are sick enough to need hospitalization." WHO: "WHO has issued a conditional recommendation against the use of remdesivir in hospitalized patients, regardless of disease severity, as there is currently no evidence that remdesivir improves survival and other outcomes in these patients." [0] https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/know-your-treatment-options-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/know-your-tre... [1] https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-recommends-against-the-use-of-remdesivir-in-covid-19-patients https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-rec... [2] https://www.has-sante.fr/jcms/p_3201940/fr/evaluation-des-traitements-de-la-covid-19-la-has-publie-son-evaluation-du-remdesivir https://www.has-sante.fr/jcms/p_3201940/fr/evaluation-des-tr...
hilbertseries 5y ago
If it works, not very well. There were some very small underpowered studies that showed promise. Then large RCTs were done and it didn’t work. Brazil would certainly not be in the situation it’s in right now if ivermectin cured covid. https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/ivermectin-why-potential-covid-treatment-isnt-recommended-use https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/ivermectin-why-potential-c...
- herenow2021 5y ago
  No, all the trials show benefit. One RCT trial published in Jama, even despite severe flaws such as giving ivermectin in the placebo group, still showed benefit. The conflict of interests with that study are large though, so a significant number of independent doctors have written a letter describing the flaws in the study and why it should be retracted: https://jamaletter.com/ https://jamaletter.com/ The situation with Brazil is that Ivermectin has become politicized, so that it is not widely used in the country. When you compare cities that use it versus cities that don't the results are striking: https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/ https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epide...
  - Lhd 5y ago
    Interesting and very frustrating that these kinds of studies and analysis do not reach any decision-making outcomes. Unfortunately not only Ivermectin became politicized, but the whole Brazilian health situation. For example, 4 health ministers since the beginning of the pandemic (a military general amongst them) and an early investment in hydroxychloroquine without solid scientific proofs (while at the same time refusing to buy Pfizer vaccines).
  - drcongo 5y ago
    It's weird how often on threads about covid, an entirely new HN account turns up to defend the other newly created account that is extolling the virtues of Ivermectin.
raverbashing 5y ago
> also proven very effective against preventing and treating sars-cov-2 virus in vivo No. India and Brazil are giving Ivermectin liberally. See how good they're doing > is estimated to be 1 in 85 trillion (p = 0.000000000000012). Their estimation is BS. Or better, it's the famous "CICO" (crap in, crap out) statistics "Oh but it won the Nobel prize". Yes and John Voigt won an Oscar, doesn't mean his performance in Anaconda was up to snuff
- herenow2021 5y ago
  Incorrect, only certain areas in Brazil and India are using Ivermectin which makes for excellent epidemiological studies showing ivermectin's effectiveness in areas that use it versus areas that don't: https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/ https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epide... (India and Brazil are towards, the bottom of the page, several other countries data show identical results where introducing ivermectin treatments causes death rates to drop)
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    > only certain areas in Brazil Incorrect, if you go to any pharmacy in any area of Brazil you'll find it being liberally sold even without a prescription. (one of multiple references https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2021/03/29/uso-de-medicamentos-do-kit-covid-pode-ter-provocado-a-morte-de-tres-pessoas-em-sp-outro-paciente-fez-transplante-de-figado.ghtml https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2021/03/29/uso-de-... ) Also go look up the numbers of Drug-induced hepatitis caused by Ivermectin in Brazil
    - herenow2021 5y ago
      My understanding is that even if the drug is available in Brazil OTC it has become politicized, so it's not considered standard of care. Do you have any links where health authorities in Brazil have made it standard of care? Ivermectin is incredibly safe. "Acetaminophen overdose is the leading cause for calls to Poison Control Centers (>100,000/year) and accounts for more than 56,000 emergency room visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and an estimated 458 deaths due to acute liver failure each year." https://aasldpubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hep.20293 https://aasldpubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hep.20... "Hepatic adverse events Ivermectin was suspected to be a hepatotoxicant. In fact, this claim reproduced in several publications was based on few individual case reports [Sparsa, 2006; Veit et al., 2006; Hirota et al., 2011] where the causal relationship with ivermectin treatment was not convincingly established. The last update of LiverTox [2018], a database of drug-induced hepatotoxicity, did not classify ivermectin as a known hepatotoxicant, a conclusion recently confirmed by the US National Institutes of Health [NIH, 2021]." Taken from a recent 48 page review of the the entire literature on Ivermectin safety by a medical toxicologist: https://www.medincell.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Clinical_Safety_of_Ivermectin-March_2021.pfd https://www.medincell.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Clinica... (edit: not 50,000 liver failures, 56,000 er room visits :)
wonnage 5y ago
There's no evidence that it works. The studies used concentrations that were roughly 1000x a regular human dosage. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-is-the-new-hydroxychloroquine/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-is-the-new-hydro...
- herenow2021 5y ago
  The theory that ivermectin’s anti-viral activity is dependent on unachievable tissue concentrations is incorrect as follows: In the cell culture study by Caly et al from Monash University in Australia, although very high concentrations of ivermectin were used, this was not a human model. Humans have immune and circulatory systems working in concert with ivermectin, thus concentration required in humans have little relation to concentrations used in a laboratory cell culture. Further, prolonged durations of exposure to a drug likely would require a fraction of the dosing in a short-term cell model exposure. There are multiple mechanisms by which ivermectin is thought to exert its anti-viral effects, with the least likely mechanism that of the blocking of importins as theorized in the Monash study above. These other mechanisms are not thought to require either supraphysiologic doses or concentrations and include competitive binding of ivermectin with the host receptor-binding region of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, limiting binding to the ACE-2 receptor; binding to the SARS-CoV-2 RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp), thereby inhibiting viral replication (Swargiary, 2020); binding/interference with multiple essential structural and non-structural proteins required by the virus in order to replicate. The theory that ivermectin would need supraphysiologic tissue concentration to be effective is most strongly disproven by the now 24 controlled clinical trials which used standard doses of ivermectin yet reported large clinical impacts in reducing rates of transmission, deterioration, and mortality.
saiya-jin 5y ago
Had discussions on this with our close friends who work as doctors at the covid front line (emergency & intense care unit) in Switzerland's biggest hospital (since wife is a doctor herself we know a lot of them). The feedback? Meh, provably doesn't work in regular doses, +-works in lab culture when dosage is 1000x the regular one with god knows what side effects, and thus no doctor here uses it. Its not some emotional dismissal, but deep study of available research by top medical virology experts in a country which has more money to spend than any other on this, and plenty of this medicine if its proved working. They discuss & evaluate daily all available information, and Ivermectin simply doesn't pass as anything even remotely working. Now I am far from virology expert myself, but I don't mind listening to massive group of experts. I've seen some people propagating this drug, presumably in good faith. But from the outside it looks exactly like another conspiracy theory when you can't discuss with people about simple facts. All this because of some web page, youtube channel etc going mental in one single direction, about one 'expert' who discovered truth that governments and pharma corporations don't want you to know
- argvargc 5y ago
  Tens of thousands of patients have been tested in double-digit, peer-reviewed RCT's, showing high efficacy: https://c19ivermectin.com/ https://c19ivermectin.com/
- amnot_billgates 5y ago
  Sounds like the doctors you spoke with didn't have any experience with ivermectin and are referencing old information (1000x standard dosage is needed). There are many doctors who do use it and see good results. Slovakia recently started using Ivermectin widely in March (https://twitter.com/BIRDGroupUK/status/1385990416730923013 https://twitter.com/BIRDGroupUK/status/1385990416730923013) and saw steep reduction in deaths. If you are interested in having a good faith discussion about ivermectin facts, that would be great. What questions do you have?
bobowzki 5y ago
Are you Brazilian?
drcongo 5y ago
It's weird how often on threads about covid, an entirely new HN account turns up to extol the virtues of Ivermectin. I'd say the chances of that being a coincidence are estimated to be 1 in 85 trillion.
- anodari 5y ago
  Here in Brazil there is a manufacturer that finances a group that promotes its use. "The sale of vermifuge ivermectin jumped from R$44.4 million in 2019 to R$409 million last year, an increase of 829%." (In portuguese) https://negativando.medium.com/m%C3%A9dicos-pela-vida-s%C3%A3o-diretamente-ligados-a-grupo-empresarial-que-produz-ivermectina-140285fe0691 https://negativando.medium.com/m%C3%A9dicos-pela-vida-s%C3%A...
  - bbb2019 5y ago
    If you are skeptical of financial motivated misinformation - are you concerned that the parent article - touting an unapproved FDA cure for covid - is placed on a website that advertises it sells sponsored content articles: https://www.postmediasolutions.com/solutions/content/ https://www.postmediasolutions.com/solutions/content/ Or that the FDA promotes Remdesivir which make's Gilead billions of dollars, where the largest non-manufacturer sponsored trial by the WHO showed 0 benefit for saving lives? Why is hacker news so excited about something that may take months to get to market, currently has less efficacy data than ivermectin, and will never have the safety profile of ivermectin?
- argvargc 5y ago
  Maybe potentially saving lives by providing negligently under-reported and big-coughtech suppressed information is enough to motivate someone to set up an account?
- read_if_gay_ 5y ago
  This is the first time I see this and so at least to me, an actual counter to their points would have been more of a convincing argument, compared to accusations of shilling which might as well be FUD.

sankoz 5y ago

Looks like Ivermectin has generated a lot of buzz that many are self medicating. The first link that google throws up when searching for Ivermectin is the FDA page "Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19" https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-shoul...

herenow2021 5y ago
The FDA is being criminally negligent with their warning. They admit in their press-release after 1 year of the pandemic, they still have not evaluated the data showing ivermectin treats covid: "The FDA has not reviewed data to support use of ivermectin in COVID-19 patients to treat or to prevent COVID-19". That's their job. If they haven't evaluated the data, they should not attack a treatment that saves lives when there are 6 independent meta-analyses showing it works (Bryant, Hill, Kory, Lawrie, Nardelli meta-analysis links are available this page: https://ivmmeta.com/ https://ivmmeta.com/)
isolli 5y ago
I have no opinion on Ivermectin, but I find it odd that the FDA keeps implicitly recommending remdesivir [0] while the WHO (together with several European countries) recommends against it [1]. I believe the FDA is compromising its credibility, which is sad. FDA: "The FDA has approved the antiviral drug Veklury (remdesivir) for adults and certain pediatric patients with COVID-19 who are sick enough to need hospitalization." WHO: "WHO has issued a conditional recommendation against the use of remdesivir in hospitalized patients, regardless of disease severity, as there is currently no evidence that remdesivir improves survival and other outcomes in these patients." [0] https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/know-your-treatment-options-covid-19 https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/know-your-tre... [1] https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-recommends-against-the-use-of-remdesivir-in-covid-19-patients https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-rec... [2] https://www.has-sante.fr/jcms/p_3201940/fr/evaluation-des-traitements-de-la-covid-19-la-has-publie-son-evaluation-du-remdesivir https://www.has-sante.fr/jcms/p_3201940/fr/evaluation-des-tr...

hilbertseries 5y ago

If it works, not very well. There were some very small underpowered studies that showed promise. Then large RCTs were done and it didn’t work. Brazil would certainly not be in the situation it’s in right now if ivermectin cured covid. https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/ivermectin-why-potential-covid-treatment-isnt-recommended-use https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/ivermectin-why-potential-c...

herenow2021 5y ago
No, all the trials show benefit. One RCT trial published in Jama, even despite severe flaws such as giving ivermectin in the placebo group, still showed benefit. The conflict of interests with that study are large though, so a significant number of independent doctors have written a letter describing the flaws in the study and why it should be retracted: https://jamaletter.com/ https://jamaletter.com/ The situation with Brazil is that Ivermectin has become politicized, so that it is not widely used in the country. When you compare cities that use it versus cities that don't the results are striking: https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/ https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epide...
- Lhd 5y ago
  Interesting and very frustrating that these kinds of studies and analysis do not reach any decision-making outcomes. Unfortunately not only Ivermectin became politicized, but the whole Brazilian health situation. For example, 4 health ministers since the beginning of the pandemic (a military general amongst them) and an early investment in hydroxychloroquine without solid scientific proofs (while at the same time refusing to buy Pfizer vaccines).
- drcongo 5y ago
  It's weird how often on threads about covid, an entirely new HN account turns up to defend the other newly created account that is extolling the virtues of Ivermectin.

raverbashing 5y ago

> also proven very effective against preventing and treating sars-cov-2 virus in vivo No. India and Brazil are giving Ivermectin liberally. See how good they're doing > is estimated to be 1 in 85 trillion (p = 0.000000000000012). Their estimation is BS. Or better, it's the famous "CICO" (crap in, crap out) statistics "Oh but it won the Nobel prize". Yes and John Voigt won an Oscar, doesn't mean his performance in Anaconda was up to snuff

herenow2021 5y ago
Incorrect, only certain areas in Brazil and India are using Ivermectin which makes for excellent epidemiological studies showing ivermectin's effectiveness in areas that use it versus areas that don't: https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/ https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epide... (India and Brazil are towards, the bottom of the page, several other countries data show identical results where introducing ivermectin treatments causes death rates to drop)
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > only certain areas in Brazil Incorrect, if you go to any pharmacy in any area of Brazil you'll find it being liberally sold even without a prescription. (one of multiple references https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2021/03/29/uso-de-medicamentos-do-kit-covid-pode-ter-provocado-a-morte-de-tres-pessoas-em-sp-outro-paciente-fez-transplante-de-figado.ghtml https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2021/03/29/uso-de-... ) Also go look up the numbers of Drug-induced hepatitis caused by Ivermectin in Brazil
  - herenow2021 5y ago
    My understanding is that even if the drug is available in Brazil OTC it has become politicized, so it's not considered standard of care. Do you have any links where health authorities in Brazil have made it standard of care? Ivermectin is incredibly safe. "Acetaminophen overdose is the leading cause for calls to Poison Control Centers (>100,000/year) and accounts for more than 56,000 emergency room visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and an estimated 458 deaths due to acute liver failure each year." https://aasldpubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hep.20293 https://aasldpubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hep.20... "Hepatic adverse events Ivermectin was suspected to be a hepatotoxicant. In fact, this claim reproduced in several publications was based on few individual case reports [Sparsa, 2006; Veit et al., 2006; Hirota et al., 2011] where the causal relationship with ivermectin treatment was not convincingly established. The last update of LiverTox [2018], a database of drug-induced hepatotoxicity, did not classify ivermectin as a known hepatotoxicant, a conclusion recently confirmed by the US National Institutes of Health [NIH, 2021]." Taken from a recent 48 page review of the the entire literature on Ivermectin safety by a medical toxicologist: https://www.medincell.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Clinical_Safety_of_Ivermectin-March_2021.pfd https://www.medincell.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Clinica... (edit: not 50,000 liver failures, 56,000 er room visits :)

wonnage 5y ago

There's no evidence that it works. The studies used concentrations that were roughly 1000x a regular human dosage. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-is-the-new-hydroxychloroquine/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-is-the-new-hydro...

herenow2021 5y ago
The theory that ivermectin’s anti-viral activity is dependent on unachievable tissue concentrations is incorrect as follows: In the cell culture study by Caly et al from Monash University in Australia, although very high concentrations of ivermectin were used, this was not a human model. Humans have immune and circulatory systems working in concert with ivermectin, thus concentration required in humans have little relation to concentrations used in a laboratory cell culture. Further, prolonged durations of exposure to a drug likely would require a fraction of the dosing in a short-term cell model exposure. There are multiple mechanisms by which ivermectin is thought to exert its anti-viral effects, with the least likely mechanism that of the blocking of importins as theorized in the Monash study above. These other mechanisms are not thought to require either supraphysiologic doses or concentrations and include competitive binding of ivermectin with the host receptor-binding region of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, limiting binding to the ACE-2 receptor; binding to the SARS-CoV-2 RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp), thereby inhibiting viral replication (Swargiary, 2020); binding/interference with multiple essential structural and non-structural proteins required by the virus in order to replicate. The theory that ivermectin would need supraphysiologic tissue concentration to be effective is most strongly disproven by the now 24 controlled clinical trials which used standard doses of ivermectin yet reported large clinical impacts in reducing rates of transmission, deterioration, and mortality.

saiya-jin 5y ago

Had discussions on this with our close friends who work as doctors at the covid front line (emergency & intense care unit) in Switzerland's biggest hospital (since wife is a doctor herself we know a lot of them). The feedback? Meh, provably doesn't work in regular doses, +-works in lab culture when dosage is 1000x the regular one with god knows what side effects, and thus no doctor here uses it. Its not some emotional dismissal, but deep study of available research by top medical virology experts in a country which has more money to spend than any other on this, and plenty of this medicine if its proved working. They discuss & evaluate daily all available information, and Ivermectin simply doesn't pass as anything even remotely working. Now I am far from virology expert myself, but I don't mind listening to massive group of experts. I've seen some people propagating this drug, presumably in good faith. But from the outside it looks exactly like another conspiracy theory when you can't discuss with people about simple facts. All this because of some web page, youtube channel etc going mental in one single direction, about one 'expert' who discovered truth that governments and pharma corporations don't want you to know

argvargc 5y ago
Tens of thousands of patients have been tested in double-digit, peer-reviewed RCT's, showing high efficacy: https://c19ivermectin.com/ https://c19ivermectin.com/
amnot_billgates 5y ago
Sounds like the doctors you spoke with didn't have any experience with ivermectin and are referencing old information (1000x standard dosage is needed). There are many doctors who do use it and see good results. Slovakia recently started using Ivermectin widely in March (https://twitter.com/BIRDGroupUK/status/1385990416730923013 https://twitter.com/BIRDGroupUK/status/1385990416730923013) and saw steep reduction in deaths. If you are interested in having a good faith discussion about ivermectin facts, that would be great. What questions do you have?

bobowzki 5y ago

Are you Brazilian?

drcongo 5y ago

It's weird how often on threads about covid, an entirely new HN account turns up to extol the virtues of Ivermectin. I'd say the chances of that being a coincidence are estimated to be 1 in 85 trillion.

anodari 5y ago
Here in Brazil there is a manufacturer that finances a group that promotes its use. "The sale of vermifuge ivermectin jumped from R$44.4 million in 2019 to R$409 million last year, an increase of 829%." (In portuguese) https://negativando.medium.com/m%C3%A9dicos-pela-vida-s%C3%A3o-diretamente-ligados-a-grupo-empresarial-que-produz-ivermectina-140285fe0691 https://negativando.medium.com/m%C3%A9dicos-pela-vida-s%C3%A...
- bbb2019 5y ago
  If you are skeptical of financial motivated misinformation - are you concerned that the parent article - touting an unapproved FDA cure for covid - is placed on a website that advertises it sells sponsored content articles: https://www.postmediasolutions.com/solutions/content/ https://www.postmediasolutions.com/solutions/content/ Or that the FDA promotes Remdesivir which make's Gilead billions of dollars, where the largest non-manufacturer sponsored trial by the WHO showed 0 benefit for saving lives? Why is hacker news so excited about something that may take months to get to market, currently has less efficacy data than ivermectin, and will never have the safety profile of ivermectin?
argvargc 5y ago
Maybe potentially saving lives by providing negligently under-reported and big-coughtech suppressed information is enough to motivate someone to set up an account?
read_if_gay_ 5y ago
This is the first time I see this and so at least to me, an actual counter to their points would have been more of a convincing argument, compared to accusations of shilling which might as well be FUD.