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This is the wrong perspective on EVs. The solution is to have chargers at home, even slow ones. Then you have zero range anxiety. Your car is always topped up.

This is the wrong perspective on EVs. The solution is to have chargers at home, even slow ones. Then you have zero range anxiety. Your car is always topped up. You never visit a supercharger or a gas station or anything similar. You go, unplug, drive out, drive back, plug in, and that's it. Weather, infrastructure, DC fast charging, are all irrelevant aside from when you want to take cross-country trips. > 5. Car manufacturers and battery companies get solid state batteries ready for mass production. Now is the time for 300 miles+ full EV cars. With solid state, no cold weather problems, much faster charge rate, no fire risk, no liquid cooling system, much higher durability. This is the battery tech that can fully replace ICE. EVs already have enough battery capacity for 90% of trips with a simple at home charger that you plug into your regular wall socket. We need to radically scale up production, not wait for some uncertain future. Maybe solid state batteries will match current batteries in cost in half a decade, maybe not. Until then we are ravaging the environment for no reason at all when we already have a perfectly good solution with no downsides.

dataflow 6y ago
> You go, unplug, drive out, drive back, plug in, and that's it. Weather, infrastructure, DC fast charging, are all irrelevant aside from when you want to take cross-country trips. A couple hundred miles is hardly "cross-country". If you're in the San Francisco, just drive to Monterey and back, and Google Maps tells me you'll log some 240mi (assuming you don't hit traffic or diversions)...
- jussij 6y ago
  But a trip of couple of hundred miles should not be an issue. If you're driving a 240 mi round trip, at the half way point you will be taking time away from the car on whatever business brought you there in the first place. In that time your car will be sitting idle and it can be topping up ready for the return trip.
  - dataflow 6y ago
    Business? Like you mean the aquarium, assuming they have free charging spots? Does everything have to be for business? What if you're going for a hiking trail or something? Is there really no scenario where you could drive that far and not be greeted with a charging spot waiting for you at the right location? Use your imagination.
    - jussij 6y ago
      When I said "whatever business brought you there" it could be anything. For example you could be visiting friends, your mother, taking your girl out for dinner or going to a business meeting. > assuming they have free charging spots Why does it have to be a free charging station? Now, you obviously need to use something like google maps to plan your trip, to make sure the place you're going to has a charging station. But I was commenting on your 'San Francisco to Monterey' trip. And as time goes on as more charging options become available, those '240mi round trip' options will also grow.
      - parineum 6y ago
        > Why does it have to be a free charging station? I think he means unoccupied. > Now, you obviously need to use something like google maps to plan your trip, to make sure the place you're going to has a charging station. What if the place you're going doesn't have a charger? I run into this issue a lot. I got on a trip that only requires one charge in between but, if I'm going to a family members house, they don't have a dc fast charger at their house. That means, even though my car is sitting in their driveway for a few hours, I still need to stop for 45 minutes on my way home.
        dataflow 6y ago
        Can I ask how it works out for you? Are you happy with the car overall? Or does it make you regret getting an EV?
        parineum 6y ago
        I have a Kona EV and I really really like the car. There is, however, currently a recall on the main battery that sounds like it's going to be fully replaced. For me, personally, all the little caveats of driving an EV work out okay. In the situation I described, I'm okay with hitting a charger on my way home and spending the time waiting. I've taken it on a couple 2 or 3 stop trips (depending on how long you want to stop) and it's not really a big deal. I'm planning a trip next month where the drive will be two days with a total of 3-4 stops on each leg. I'm generally an early adopter and I kinda just think it's cool so I like it. But I don't have a family and I have some free time. However, when I talk to people about it, I always mention it and I would never flat out recommend and EV to someone because of the charging situation. I think an EV would make a great second car for just about any family or couple but having it as your main and only car has drawbacks.
  - jjav 6y ago
    > In that time your car will be sitting idle and it can be topping up ready for the return trip. The example was to Monterey, a trip I do (did) very often to take the kid to the aquarium. Parking on the street, there's no charging to be had, so no, car isn't topping up. I never took the electric car to Monterey, I'd be stranded.
fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
Yeah, the best thing about my M3 is I almost always leave home with a full “gas tank”, even though I’m using the level 1 charger for now: it’s mildly less convenient for road trips, but three to four hours between charges means you can charge while getting lunch and dinner, and it doesn’t actually effect your total drive time all that much (at least, if you’re like me and try to stop every so often anyways).
- neogodless 6y ago
  You don't have to put "gas tank" in quotes when you drive a BMW!
  - Armisael16 6y ago
    I think M3 was short for (Tesla) Model 3 here.
bit_logic 6y ago
Don't use the environment to justify full EV. From that perspective, Tesla, ID.4, Mach-E, these are all a waste of precious battery resources. For the environment, all that matters is increasing total aggregate EV miles driven. One Tesla battery can be used in four PHEVs. 95% of single trips are under 30 miles. A 50 mile PHEV could easily cover this on pure electric even with cold weather. Instead of wasting a 80kwh battery in a Tesla, that could go into building four PHEV, basically increasing total EV miles driven four times faster. So don't talk about the environment and say full EV is better than PHEV. Make other arguments if you want, but don't use climate change for your position, the math is clear, one Tesla = four PHEVs and 95% of trips are under 30 miles.
- llampx 6y ago
  One counter-argument to that is that many (I won't say most since I don't have sources) PHEVs don't get plugged in too often and are only bought for the tax advantages. An issue in some countries which give tax advantages to PHEV buyers, especially for company cars, where the driver doesn't have to pay for petrol.
- culopatin 6y ago
  You have to account for a round trip where you can’t charge at destination, that charging above 80% is substantially slower, and driving under ~15% damages the battery faster (or so they say in some manuals). That gives you 20%-80% of your quick and safe usage of your battery. Also rated at 50 miles is more like 30 highway in real life. Adding all these things up makes 80mi as low as you want to go for normal US cities. In Europe it wouldn’t be an issue perhaps. A broken-in real-world Leaf won’t finish a 60mi highway round trip without making you sweat towards the end. And that’s for perfectly planned trips, but a crash that makes you take a detour could put you in a risky situation. I’ve had to tow my GF more than once because something unexpected happened and she just simply ran out of juice. Not because of poor planning, but because life just happened that way.
jjav 6y ago
> The solution is to have chargers at home, even slow ones. Then you have zero range anxiety. This doesn't follow at all. Range anxiety is not being able (or worrying about cutting too close) to make it while out on the road. If you stay so close to home that you can go back and charge that's not the scenario. Like when I took (pre-pandemic) our Fiat 500e to work and whether I can run an errand after work depends on the lottery of whether I can get a charger spot at the office. Or having to come up with elaborate schemes to get the car to the dealer because it's too far on one charge. The car is awesome for short errands near home but anything farther out becomes a project to manage.
- ginko 6y ago
  >Like when I took (pre-pandemic) our Fiat 500e to work and whether I can run an errand after work depends on the lottery of whether I can get a charger spot at the office. According to a cursory google search the Fiat 500e has a range of 320km. Make that 250 due to overstated advertising if you want. Surely this has to be enough to ride your car to and back from work and pick up a bunch of groceries on the way? How long is your commute?
  - raisedbyninjas 6y ago
    The previous gen 500e only has half of that range, ~135km. The new gen still isn't available in the US.
    - ginko 6y ago
      Okay, that is a bit low.
  - jjav 6y ago
    The realistic range is 80 miles (with some hills here) and that commute was about 36. Unable to score a charging station at office meant no detours and a nervous slow coast back home.
throwaway189262 6y ago
EV's are great for big cities, but about half of US pop lives in rural areas. Outside major highways EV chargers don't exist in the sticks. In rural places 50 mile trips are normal. It's not unusual to drive 90 miles each way in a day. And chances are you won't find an EV charger on either end. And in rural areas you have single phase electric, slowing down charges. And in the same places, power goes out for days at a time most years. If you think the US is ready to go EV-only you live in an urban bubble. In much of the US, EV's are still wildly impractical. In the country you may need to go 500 miles with no electricity when power is out for a week. Only a fool would buy an EV in sparse areas where long outages happen (most of rural US)
- goodcanadian 6y ago
  I grew up in rural Canada, and perhaps the U.S. is a much more undeveloped country than I thought, but almost nothing you say applies to where I grew up.
  - throwaway189262 6y ago
    Perhaps. Canadian population is concentrated in southern areas. Majority of continental US is habitable and has population density less than 10 people per square mile.
    - goodcanadian 6y ago
      I did not live at all near the U.S. border. I've no doubt that you can find places such as you have described in the U.S. (and in Canada), but I think you are vastly over-estimating the percentage of the population who lives there. Even in rural areas, reliable electricity is the norm, and people's typical daily commute is well within the range of an EV. The availability of public chargers is growing, too.
      - throwaway189262 6y ago
        Yeah, I haven't lived in the sticks for some years and EV chargers might be more widespread than I thought. Rural folks still love their ICE cars though for sure
navaati 6y ago
> The solution is to have chargers at home, even slow ones. So screw everyone not having either their nice American suburban home or their nice luxury apartment complex with a parking spot and a charger for each flat ?
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Mass charging infrastructure may sound daunting, but at least it's not several tons of flamable substance that produces toxic and explosive fumes, contsminates soil and must be stored deep underground
- adrianN 6y ago
  At first, yes, let the richer segment adopt the new technology first. Use the time to turn street lights into chargers.
EricE 6y ago
>This is the wrong perspective on EVs. No, it's the practical and realistic one. There is nothing wrong with a transitional strategy such as range extenders. Indeed, it will provide the strongest natural incentive to expand the charging networks - demand! You can try to top down force things all you want - good luck with that. It's far more effective to figure out how to get people to naturally go - or heck willingly run to - where you need them to be then beat them over the head and lecture them about how stupid/wrong/wasteful they are. Yeah, people just love to engage with folks berating them for how bad they are (i.e. keep the overheated ravaging rhetoric to a minimum if you want normal people to engage with you). Compromise - it works. If you play a zero sum game you more often than not will get zero results. >EVs already have enough battery capacity for 90% of trips Until it's 100% it's irrelevant for all but the most devout faithful. No one in their right mind buys a partial solution to their pressing problems. Which is why range extenders are brilliant. Fill up with a tank of gas or plug in at a reduced cost with an offset of it requiring more time? I get to make the choice? Brilliant!

dataflow 6y ago

> You go, unplug, drive out, drive back, plug in, and that's it. Weather, infrastructure, DC fast charging, are all irrelevant aside from when you want to take cross-country trips. A couple hundred miles is hardly "cross-country". If you're in the San Francisco, just drive to Monterey and back, and Google Maps tells me you'll log some 240mi (assuming you don't hit traffic or diversions)...

jussij 6y ago
But a trip of couple of hundred miles should not be an issue. If you're driving a 240 mi round trip, at the half way point you will be taking time away from the car on whatever business brought you there in the first place. In that time your car will be sitting idle and it can be topping up ready for the return trip.
- dataflow 6y ago
  Business? Like you mean the aquarium, assuming they have free charging spots? Does everything have to be for business? What if you're going for a hiking trail or something? Is there really no scenario where you could drive that far and not be greeted with a charging spot waiting for you at the right location? Use your imagination.
  - jussij 6y ago
    When I said "whatever business brought you there" it could be anything. For example you could be visiting friends, your mother, taking your girl out for dinner or going to a business meeting. > assuming they have free charging spots Why does it have to be a free charging station? Now, you obviously need to use something like google maps to plan your trip, to make sure the place you're going to has a charging station. But I was commenting on your 'San Francisco to Monterey' trip. And as time goes on as more charging options become available, those '240mi round trip' options will also grow.
    - parineum 6y ago
      > Why does it have to be a free charging station? I think he means unoccupied. > Now, you obviously need to use something like google maps to plan your trip, to make sure the place you're going to has a charging station. What if the place you're going doesn't have a charger? I run into this issue a lot. I got on a trip that only requires one charge in between but, if I'm going to a family members house, they don't have a dc fast charger at their house. That means, even though my car is sitting in their driveway for a few hours, I still need to stop for 45 minutes on my way home.
      - dataflow 6y ago
        Can I ask how it works out for you? Are you happy with the car overall? Or does it make you regret getting an EV?
        parineum 6y ago
        I have a Kona EV and I really really like the car. There is, however, currently a recall on the main battery that sounds like it's going to be fully replaced. For me, personally, all the little caveats of driving an EV work out okay. In the situation I described, I'm okay with hitting a charger on my way home and spending the time waiting. I've taken it on a couple 2 or 3 stop trips (depending on how long you want to stop) and it's not really a big deal. I'm planning a trip next month where the drive will be two days with a total of 3-4 stops on each leg. I'm generally an early adopter and I kinda just think it's cool so I like it. But I don't have a family and I have some free time. However, when I talk to people about it, I always mention it and I would never flat out recommend and EV to someone because of the charging situation. I think an EV would make a great second car for just about any family or couple but having it as your main and only car has drawbacks.
- jjav 6y ago
  > In that time your car will be sitting idle and it can be topping up ready for the return trip. The example was to Monterey, a trip I do (did) very often to take the kid to the aquarium. Parking on the street, there's no charging to be had, so no, car isn't topping up. I never took the electric car to Monterey, I'd be stranded.

fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago

Yeah, the best thing about my M3 is I almost always leave home with a full “gas tank”, even though I’m using the level 1 charger for now: it’s mildly less convenient for road trips, but three to four hours between charges means you can charge while getting lunch and dinner, and it doesn’t actually effect your total drive time all that much (at least, if you’re like me and try to stop every so often anyways).

neogodless 6y ago
You don't have to put "gas tank" in quotes when you drive a BMW!
- Armisael16 6y ago
  I think M3 was short for (Tesla) Model 3 here.

bit_logic 6y ago

Don't use the environment to justify full EV. From that perspective, Tesla, ID.4, Mach-E, these are all a waste of precious battery resources. For the environment, all that matters is increasing total aggregate EV miles driven. One Tesla battery can be used in four PHEVs. 95% of single trips are under 30 miles. A 50 mile PHEV could easily cover this on pure electric even with cold weather. Instead of wasting a 80kwh battery in a Tesla, that could go into building four PHEV, basically increasing total EV miles driven four times faster. So don't talk about the environment and say full EV is better than PHEV. Make other arguments if you want, but don't use climate change for your position, the math is clear, one Tesla = four PHEVs and 95% of trips are under 30 miles.

llampx 6y ago
One counter-argument to that is that many (I won't say most since I don't have sources) PHEVs don't get plugged in too often and are only bought for the tax advantages. An issue in some countries which give tax advantages to PHEV buyers, especially for company cars, where the driver doesn't have to pay for petrol.
culopatin 6y ago
You have to account for a round trip where you can’t charge at destination, that charging above 80% is substantially slower, and driving under ~15% damages the battery faster (or so they say in some manuals). That gives you 20%-80% of your quick and safe usage of your battery. Also rated at 50 miles is more like 30 highway in real life. Adding all these things up makes 80mi as low as you want to go for normal US cities. In Europe it wouldn’t be an issue perhaps. A broken-in real-world Leaf won’t finish a 60mi highway round trip without making you sweat towards the end. And that’s for perfectly planned trips, but a crash that makes you take a detour could put you in a risky situation. I’ve had to tow my GF more than once because something unexpected happened and she just simply ran out of juice. Not because of poor planning, but because life just happened that way.

jjav 6y ago

> The solution is to have chargers at home, even slow ones. Then you have zero range anxiety. This doesn't follow at all. Range anxiety is not being able (or worrying about cutting too close) to make it while out on the road. If you stay so close to home that you can go back and charge that's not the scenario. Like when I took (pre-pandemic) our Fiat 500e to work and whether I can run an errand after work depends on the lottery of whether I can get a charger spot at the office. Or having to come up with elaborate schemes to get the car to the dealer because it's too far on one charge. The car is awesome for short errands near home but anything farther out becomes a project to manage.

ginko 6y ago
>Like when I took (pre-pandemic) our Fiat 500e to work and whether I can run an errand after work depends on the lottery of whether I can get a charger spot at the office. According to a cursory google search the Fiat 500e has a range of 320km. Make that 250 due to overstated advertising if you want. Surely this has to be enough to ride your car to and back from work and pick up a bunch of groceries on the way? How long is your commute?
- raisedbyninjas 6y ago
  The previous gen 500e only has half of that range, ~135km. The new gen still isn't available in the US.
  - ginko 6y ago
    Okay, that is a bit low.
- jjav 6y ago
  The realistic range is 80 miles (with some hills here) and that commute was about 36. Unable to score a charging station at office meant no detours and a nervous slow coast back home.

throwaway189262 6y ago

EV's are great for big cities, but about half of US pop lives in rural areas. Outside major highways EV chargers don't exist in the sticks. In rural places 50 mile trips are normal. It's not unusual to drive 90 miles each way in a day. And chances are you won't find an EV charger on either end. And in rural areas you have single phase electric, slowing down charges. And in the same places, power goes out for days at a time most years. If you think the US is ready to go EV-only you live in an urban bubble. In much of the US, EV's are still wildly impractical. In the country you may need to go 500 miles with no electricity when power is out for a week. Only a fool would buy an EV in sparse areas where long outages happen (most of rural US)

goodcanadian 6y ago
I grew up in rural Canada, and perhaps the U.S. is a much more undeveloped country than I thought, but almost nothing you say applies to where I grew up.
- throwaway189262 6y ago
  Perhaps. Canadian population is concentrated in southern areas. Majority of continental US is habitable and has population density less than 10 people per square mile.
  - goodcanadian 6y ago
    I did not live at all near the U.S. border. I've no doubt that you can find places such as you have described in the U.S. (and in Canada), but I think you are vastly over-estimating the percentage of the population who lives there. Even in rural areas, reliable electricity is the norm, and people's typical daily commute is well within the range of an EV. The availability of public chargers is growing, too.
    - throwaway189262 6y ago
      Yeah, I haven't lived in the sticks for some years and EV chargers might be more widespread than I thought. Rural folks still love their ICE cars though for sure

navaati 6y ago

> The solution is to have chargers at home, even slow ones. So screw everyone not having either their nice American suburban home or their nice luxury apartment complex with a parking spot and a charger for each flat ?

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Mass charging infrastructure may sound daunting, but at least it's not several tons of flamable substance that produces toxic and explosive fumes, contsminates soil and must be stored deep underground
adrianN 6y ago
At first, yes, let the richer segment adopt the new technology first. Use the time to turn street lights into chargers.

EricE 6y ago

>This is the wrong perspective on EVs. No, it's the practical and realistic one. There is nothing wrong with a transitional strategy such as range extenders. Indeed, it will provide the strongest natural incentive to expand the charging networks - demand! You can try to top down force things all you want - good luck with that. It's far more effective to figure out how to get people to naturally go - or heck willingly run to - where you need them to be then beat them over the head and lecture them about how stupid/wrong/wasteful they are. Yeah, people just love to engage with folks berating them for how bad they are (i.e. keep the overheated ravaging rhetoric to a minimum if you want normal people to engage with you). Compromise - it works. If you play a zero sum game you more often than not will get zero results. >EVs already have enough battery capacity for 90% of trips Until it's 100% it's irrelevant for all but the most devout faithful. No one in their right mind buys a partial solution to their pressing problems. Which is why range extenders are brilliant. Fill up with a tank of gas or plug in at a reduced cost with an offset of it requiring more time? I get to make the choice? Brilliant!