5 ms·

> There are already basic protections in place. For example, it would be expressly illegal for a workplace to fire you for being a satanist. That's not "basic

> There are already basic protections in place. For example, it would be expressly illegal for a workplace to fire you for being a satanist. That's not "basic protections", it's existing case law about a conflict within the constitution. Freedom of religion and freedom of association are both protected, but where they conflict we generally find that whichever side is providing some kind of good to the public (be it products or employment) needs to bend. You can't fire me for my religion because of the nature of "firing" (being something that denies me something most people have), not "religion". It can't be extended without stepping on some other right-holder's toes.

axaxs 5y ago
Sure, but it's worth considering whether we should care about stepping on the right-holder's toes. That's what got us into corporate controlled speech, doxing, and twitter mobs in the first place. Read, people wouldn't do it if it weren't effective. It probably wouldn't be -as- bad if in the US healthcare wasn't tied to employment. As it sits today, speaking your mind can literally be a death sentence, if you happen to say something a mob doesn't agree with.
- newacct583 5y ago
  > As it sits today, speaking your mind can literally be a death sentence, if you happen to say something a mob doesn't agree with. Ridiculous hyperbole. First, because it imagines that people get killed for tweets, and second because it hilariously invokes the idea that this is a new thing. You genuinely don't think people have been persecuted for opinions in the past? Let me get my dead buddy Galileo to drop a few rocks on your head. Likewise McCarthyism, etc... Objectively free expression of inconvenient conservative ideas in the US has never been cheaper, freer, easier or more pervasive than it is RIGHT NOW. Good grief, just look at your own posts. You don't look like someone afraid of being killed by a mob.
  - axaxs 5y ago
    I certainly didn't mean to offend you, or to pretend things today are worse than at any point in the past. It was more an argument against this weird celebration of getting people fired. I mean, there's even a subreddit called ByeByeJob. Just pointing out it's not so simple as 'hur hur he got fired.' Imagine you just found out you got cancer, and had a public meltdown on the way home that someone happened to film. Somewhere people would be laughing at you, while others are trying to get you fired, and poof there goes your health insurance. Crazy world.
    - watwut 5y ago
      That is exactly what happened to gays and lesbians and single moms in conservative places. That is what happens to anyone with history of sex work. There is actual organization right know to collect wrong thing said by liberal professors and to try them get fired. The abortion clinic volunteers that go with you so that you are not yelled at alone are a thing for a reason. And in civil rights era, white who did not supported segregation was economically punished and had hard time to find job.
      - Fern_Blossom 5y ago
        I mean... is what you said advocation to keep this cycle going? That's where whataboutism leads to. Justification to just swing the pendulum the other direction. I don't agree with any of it happening to either side of the political spectrum. At some point the shit has to stop.
      - a1369209993 5y ago
        And? The direction of implication is "people are evil because they do evil actions", not "actions are evil because evil people do them". Unjustifiedly firing people is wrong, and therefore conservatives are wrong to do so. Unjustifiedly firing people is wrong, and therefore liberals are wrong to do so.
- disabled 5y ago
  > As it sits today, speaking your mind can literally be a death sentence, if you happen to say something a mob doesn't agree with. Exactly, this is a great reason to leave the USA, especially if you already have health issues. With AI taking hold and it getting harder to emigrate, the time to leave is now. Jobs with benefits for programmers are going to become more uncommon, with remote work being possible, as more contract work is going to be offered. I am a dual US|EU (Croatian) citizen, who is culturally American. I can legally live in about 30 countries (Freedom of Movement rights) as an EU citizen. I left the US over healthcare. For most people on here, Ireland is the place to go to get EU citizenship. Once you get EU citizenship, it levels the playing field and you can go to places with better healthcare than Ireland.
  - nradov 5y ago
    More people migrate from the EU to USA than the reverse. So it seems the majority disagree with you. https://mises.org/wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-way-around https://mises.org/wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-...
    - Fern_Blossom 5y ago
      Nah, people escape from the USA all the time. No one moves here. Our border walls are to keep people in, not out. I mean, why else would 2018 and 2019 have record immigration? https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-finding... https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states-2020 https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested... Look, people should live where they want, be happy and be proud where they're at. Nothing wrong with that. But single platform ideals to make wide sweeping judgements are a good reason to keep a two party political system. Focusing on one issue and bringing a hammer down to shatter everything is rather unproductive. Yea, the USA has it's problems. Duh. Just like everywhere else has problems too. But more people run to the USA. If someone is privileged enough to find somewhere better, good, go for it. No one wants to stop you.
    - syops 5y ago
- KittenInABox 5y ago
  I'm super ignorant on this case but has there been a case in which speaking one's mind has caused their death and how was that death actually prosecuted, if it was?
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "has there been a case in which speaking one's mind has caused their death" The case that immediately sprang to mind for me was that of Alan Berg[1], a radio host who was assassinated (and about whom Oliver Stone made a movie called Talk Radio[2]). But this has happened many times throughout history, where people were assassinated (or imprisoned/executed) for their beliefs. More modern instances are things like journalists being assassinated in South America, for instance, for reporting on organized crime (similar things happening in Italy), or in Russia for criticizing Putin, or in the Islamic World for incurring the wrath of religious fanatics.. or the Charlie Hedbo attacks in Paris, or various beheadings of journalist and teachers. Some older, but still relatively recent and famous cases have been the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, and Gandhi... etc. Of course, speaking one's mind against the rulers or their system in a totalitarian state like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union has always been a quick path to the gallows or a concentration/labor/death camp. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_Radio_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_Radio_(film)
shadowgovt 5y ago
Specifically, one cannot be fired for being a satanist because of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The Constitution is completely silent on the interaction of corporations and the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights; those rights describe a relationship between the people and the government. Within that framework, government crafts law that determines how business may legally operate. Congress made a specific choice to extend (part of) a protection similar to the one described in the First Amendment to employees. It is not a complete extension; for example, at the federal level, freedom of association is not protected regarding one's business relationships, and you can be fired in most states for being a member of the KKK (there are some specific states that have added additional protections for political activities or political beliefs that would preclude such a firing). And most of the rights in the Bill of Rights aren't extended at all to the employer-employee relationship; employers may demand employees (and customers, for that matter) bear no arms on their premises, for example.

axaxs 5y ago

Sure, but it's worth considering whether we should care about stepping on the right-holder's toes. That's what got us into corporate controlled speech, doxing, and twitter mobs in the first place. Read, people wouldn't do it if it weren't effective. It probably wouldn't be -as- bad if in the US healthcare wasn't tied to employment. As it sits today, speaking your mind can literally be a death sentence, if you happen to say something a mob doesn't agree with.

newacct583 5y ago
> As it sits today, speaking your mind can literally be a death sentence, if you happen to say something a mob doesn't agree with. Ridiculous hyperbole. First, because it imagines that people get killed for tweets, and second because it hilariously invokes the idea that this is a new thing. You genuinely don't think people have been persecuted for opinions in the past? Let me get my dead buddy Galileo to drop a few rocks on your head. Likewise McCarthyism, etc... Objectively free expression of inconvenient conservative ideas in the US has never been cheaper, freer, easier or more pervasive than it is RIGHT NOW. Good grief, just look at your own posts. You don't look like someone afraid of being killed by a mob.
- axaxs 5y ago
  I certainly didn't mean to offend you, or to pretend things today are worse than at any point in the past. It was more an argument against this weird celebration of getting people fired. I mean, there's even a subreddit called ByeByeJob. Just pointing out it's not so simple as 'hur hur he got fired.' Imagine you just found out you got cancer, and had a public meltdown on the way home that someone happened to film. Somewhere people would be laughing at you, while others are trying to get you fired, and poof there goes your health insurance. Crazy world.
  - watwut 5y ago
    That is exactly what happened to gays and lesbians and single moms in conservative places. That is what happens to anyone with history of sex work. There is actual organization right know to collect wrong thing said by liberal professors and to try them get fired. The abortion clinic volunteers that go with you so that you are not yelled at alone are a thing for a reason. And in civil rights era, white who did not supported segregation was economically punished and had hard time to find job.
    - Fern_Blossom 5y ago
      I mean... is what you said advocation to keep this cycle going? That's where whataboutism leads to. Justification to just swing the pendulum the other direction. I don't agree with any of it happening to either side of the political spectrum. At some point the shit has to stop.
    - a1369209993 5y ago
      And? The direction of implication is "people are evil because they do evil actions", not "actions are evil because evil people do them". Unjustifiedly firing people is wrong, and therefore conservatives are wrong to do so. Unjustifiedly firing people is wrong, and therefore liberals are wrong to do so.
disabled 5y ago
> As it sits today, speaking your mind can literally be a death sentence, if you happen to say something a mob doesn't agree with. Exactly, this is a great reason to leave the USA, especially if you already have health issues. With AI taking hold and it getting harder to emigrate, the time to leave is now. Jobs with benefits for programmers are going to become more uncommon, with remote work being possible, as more contract work is going to be offered. I am a dual US|EU (Croatian) citizen, who is culturally American. I can legally live in about 30 countries (Freedom of Movement rights) as an EU citizen. I left the US over healthcare. For most people on here, Ireland is the place to go to get EU citizenship. Once you get EU citizenship, it levels the playing field and you can go to places with better healthcare than Ireland.
- nradov 5y ago
  More people migrate from the EU to USA than the reverse. So it seems the majority disagree with you. https://mises.org/wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-way-around https://mises.org/wire/3-times-many-europeans-move-us-other-...
  - Fern_Blossom 5y ago
    Nah, people escape from the USA all the time. No one moves here. Our border walls are to keep people in, not out. I mean, why else would 2018 and 2019 have record immigration? https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-findings-about-u-s-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-finding... https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states-2020 https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested... Look, people should live where they want, be happy and be proud where they're at. Nothing wrong with that. But single platform ideals to make wide sweeping judgements are a good reason to keep a two party political system. Focusing on one issue and bringing a hammer down to shatter everything is rather unproductive. Yea, the USA has it's problems. Duh. Just like everywhere else has problems too. But more people run to the USA. If someone is privileged enough to find somewhere better, good, go for it. No one wants to stop you.
  - syops 5y ago
KittenInABox 5y ago
I'm super ignorant on this case but has there been a case in which speaking one's mind has caused their death and how was that death actually prosecuted, if it was?
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "has there been a case in which speaking one's mind has caused their death" The case that immediately sprang to mind for me was that of Alan Berg[1], a radio host who was assassinated (and about whom Oliver Stone made a movie called Talk Radio[2]). But this has happened many times throughout history, where people were assassinated (or imprisoned/executed) for their beliefs. More modern instances are things like journalists being assassinated in South America, for instance, for reporting on organized crime (similar things happening in Italy), or in Russia for criticizing Putin, or in the Islamic World for incurring the wrath of religious fanatics.. or the Charlie Hedbo attacks in Paris, or various beheadings of journalist and teachers. Some older, but still relatively recent and famous cases have been the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, and Gandhi... etc. Of course, speaking one's mind against the rulers or their system in a totalitarian state like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union has always been a quick path to the gallows or a concentration/labor/death camp. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_Radio_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_Radio_(film)

shadowgovt 5y ago

Specifically, one cannot be fired for being a satanist because of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The Constitution is completely silent on the interaction of corporations and the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights; those rights describe a relationship between the people and the government. Within that framework, government crafts law that determines how business may legally operate. Congress made a specific choice to extend (part of) a protection similar to the one described in the First Amendment to employees. It is not a complete extension; for example, at the federal level, freedom of association is not protected regarding one's business relationships, and you can be fired in most states for being a member of the KKK (there are some specific states that have added additional protections for political activities or political beliefs that would preclude such a firing). And most of the rights in the Bill of Rights aren't extended at all to the employer-employee relationship; employers may demand employees (and customers, for that matter) bear no arms on their premises, for example.