4 ms·

Is it E2E by default yet?

by sahaskatta 5y ago

carlob 5y ago
E2E isn't even supported on desktop and web versions yet.
- out_of_protocol 5y ago
  Having no E2E by default (or at all) is, probably, intentional.
- baxuz 5y ago
  What are you talking about? Secret chats, which are E2EE, are supported on Unigram and other desktop clients.
  - solarkraft 5y ago
    But not tdesktop, which is the official desktop client.
    - baxuz 5y ago
      Telegram 7.7, MacOS, I have the feature.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      And judging by the issue for secret chats have been closed since 2016, they have no interest in implementing it either. https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/871 https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/871
f311a 5y ago
No, and they don't have plans to enable it. One of the reasons is technical: It's pretty hard to use E2E and support multiple devices.
- snotrockets 5y ago
  It's as hard as doing E2E group chats, already solved elsewhere.
  - f311a 5y ago
    That's not true, look at Whatsapp. That's the most popular messenger with E2E.
    - snotrockets 5y ago
      Whatsapp problem isn't in the algorithm, but their identity resolution (hence their roundabout way of doing their web client: https://github.com/sigalor/whatsapp-web-reveng https://github.com/sigalor/whatsapp-web-reveng) iMessage approach is to treat every conversation as a group chat between all the recipient devices and all of yours. There's another risk here, that Apple doesn't let the end user verify the list of devices the chat is encrypted for. Which is to say, a perfect E2E experience isn't trivial to design, but you don't have to drop the ball completely.
barbazoo 5y ago
I guess it's not a shortcoming if privacy isn't their primary selling point. It seems more like they want to be like wechat, packed with all the features you need to never have to leave the app.
- eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 5y ago
  Scroll down on their website https://telegram.org https://telegram.org to the bottom half. In the first row of the "Why telegram?" section, right in the middle, it says: > Private > Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct
gaius_baltar 5y ago
Nope. And groups don't even have security as an option. Basically they are amassing an enormous amount of personal data, chat logs, etc. while their marketing and the public opinion is still that "Telegram is secure". That's a disaster waiting for the company to be acquired or turn evil.
- eitland 5y ago
  > And groups don't even have security as an option. What do you even mean by this?
  - gaius_baltar 5y ago
    > What do you even mean by this? Group chats aren't E2E encrypted and there is no way to enable it for them. In contrast, standard one-to-one chats are also insecure but there is the alternative of using secret chats with E2E encryption (however, unlike Signal chats, they don't synchronize among devices).
    - eitland 5y ago
      Ok. Then write something about that instead. As recent developments have shown there is so extremely much more to security than just E2E-encryption.
temp667 5y ago
I thought they were focused on convenience etc vs the E2E security model (which makes onboarding devices harder etc). Have they put out a roadmap to E2E everything? That would be somewhat major but surprising given they seem to be doing well with current approach (ease of use / features).

Is it E2E by default yet?

carlob 5y ago

E2E isn't even supported on desktop and web versions yet.

out_of_protocol 5y ago
Having no E2E by default (or at all) is, probably, intentional.
baxuz 5y ago
What are you talking about? Secret chats, which are E2EE, are supported on Unigram and other desktop clients.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  But not tdesktop, which is the official desktop client.
  - baxuz 5y ago
    Telegram 7.7, MacOS, I have the feature.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    And judging by the issue for secret chats have been closed since 2016, they have no interest in implementing it either. https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/871 https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/871

f311a 5y ago

No, and they don't have plans to enable it. One of the reasons is technical: It's pretty hard to use E2E and support multiple devices.

snotrockets 5y ago
It's as hard as doing E2E group chats, already solved elsewhere.
- f311a 5y ago
  That's not true, look at Whatsapp. That's the most popular messenger with E2E.
  - snotrockets 5y ago
    Whatsapp problem isn't in the algorithm, but their identity resolution (hence their roundabout way of doing their web client: https://github.com/sigalor/whatsapp-web-reveng https://github.com/sigalor/whatsapp-web-reveng) iMessage approach is to treat every conversation as a group chat between all the recipient devices and all of yours. There's another risk here, that Apple doesn't let the end user verify the list of devices the chat is encrypted for. Which is to say, a perfect E2E experience isn't trivial to design, but you don't have to drop the ball completely.

barbazoo 5y ago

I guess it's not a shortcoming if privacy isn't their primary selling point. It seems more like they want to be like wechat, packed with all the features you need to never have to leave the app.

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 5y ago
Scroll down on their website https://telegram.org https://telegram.org to the bottom half. In the first row of the "Why telegram?" section, right in the middle, it says: > Private > Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct

gaius_baltar 5y ago

Nope. And groups don't even have security as an option. Basically they are amassing an enormous amount of personal data, chat logs, etc. while their marketing and the public opinion is still that "Telegram is secure". That's a disaster waiting for the company to be acquired or turn evil.

eitland 5y ago
> And groups don't even have security as an option. What do you even mean by this?
- gaius_baltar 5y ago
  > What do you even mean by this? Group chats aren't E2E encrypted and there is no way to enable it for them. In contrast, standard one-to-one chats are also insecure but there is the alternative of using secret chats with E2E encryption (however, unlike Signal chats, they don't synchronize among devices).
  - eitland 5y ago
    Ok. Then write something about that instead. As recent developments have shown there is so extremely much more to security than just E2E-encryption.

temp667 5y ago

I thought they were focused on convenience etc vs the E2E security model (which makes onboarding devices harder etc). Have they put out a roadmap to E2E everything? That would be somewhat major but surprising given they seem to be doing well with current approach (ease of use / features).