7 ms·
There is a patch thanks to contributor Marx but everyone keeps pressing "remind me later".
by lifthearth 5y ago
There is a patch thanks to contributor Marx but everyone keeps pressing "remind me later".
- daenz 5y agoDoes bribing not exist in that system?
- sudosysgen 5y agoSure there is. I don't know which motivation you'd have to bribe someone to promite your product, though. Would also be hard to sustain if intellectual property was decommodified. Other, more pressing concerns have to be addressed, though.
- daenz 5y ago>your product In a hypothetical world where I don't benefit from a competitive advantage, in what sense do I own the product / company?
- uoaei 5y agoConsider firms which are wholly owned by either 1) every single employee (worker-owned firm), 2) every employee and every customer who opts in (consumer co-op), or 3) literally every citizen of a government (publicly owned). You own it in partnership with the other people who own it. This is, in the strictest definition, the socialism that people are so scared of.
- daenz 5y agoHow much control do you have over the military of your government? Or even the DMV? Are these organizations behaving directly as a response to the majority will of the people? If not, how do you solve that problem before you add more organizations?
- uoaei 5y agoThe best answer we have today, IMO, in terms of ethics of freedom and agency, is "representative democracy," which may be extended to "liquid democracy" to bridge the gap between small, direct-democracy-capable organizations and large, unwieldy ones. Unfortunately, no solution will be perfect, but that doesn't mean some aren't better than others. The problem is in essence unsolvable. Politics and civilization is an exercise in minimizing harm rather than eliminating it, maximizing utility rather than spiking it.
- 6510 5y agoI don't know how but I do know it is much harder to make something everyone involved thinks impossible than to make something everyone thought they already had. Perhaps the problem is as simple as setting up a forum with sub forums for every government official - then throw money at it until it works.
- sudosysgen 5y agoIn the sense first and foremost that you may produce and design it, especially if production is structured in a co-op way, in the sense that you use it, especially if it's a consumer/worker co-op but also in a worker co-op, and to a lesser extent in that you are part of the society which produces it.
- avereveard 5y agobecause there aren't luxuries in that system. that creates a need, and from it a secondary market, which without titles[1], sees the exchange of power either via favors exchange or plain tribalism. bribery then becomes the norm for the influential, even if actual money doesn't change hand, favors and contraband do. 1: a catch all to include both money, 'quota cards' and the likes
- CoastalCoder 5y agoWorking example needed.
- dclowd9901 5y agoSocialism, like capitalism, also has a zero day vulnerability by the name of mundane old “human corruption” that undermines its goals. Capitalism just works better because it pits people against each other, keeping the focus off authority and top level control.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- nautilus12 5y agoProbbably due to the memory of the deaths of millions of people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... You get bit by a viper in the bathroom and your going to avoid that bathroom for a while.
- erikpukinskis 5y agoThat doesn’t really explain anything, given there are millions of deaths under capitalism too.
- toiletfuneral 5y agobut but but those don't count because...I've actually never heard the excuse, they always just go silent. Also, can people please stop conflating things like M4A with Stalin for even like 5min?
- throwaway3699 5y agoBig difference.
- heterodoxxed 5y agoNot to the bodies in the graves there isn't.
- heavyset_go 5y agoTell that to the people who were enslaved and to the people who starved to death.
- throwaway3699 5y agoSlavery is not a function of capitalism, though. Capitalism is being able to 1) firstly, own yourself and your body 2) thus sell your labour however you wish. It's the alternatives economic systems that prevent you from being free.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- edgyquant 5y agoLet me know when we reach post scarcity and no longer need a rationing device such as money.
- sudosysgen 5y agoPeople thought of this issue since 1870 and the solution they came up with is simply non-transferable rationing devices. In traditional Marxist terms this was labour vouchers but nowadays there are much better solutions. Marx himself wrote about this, in terms of primitive accumulation in socialism. For sure there are a lot of issues, but this isn't one of them. You could in theory have bribery in material terms, but this is much easier to trace than in money terms.
- edgyquant 5y agoMy argument was with the idea that money will be gone as a rationing device. You can come up with alternatives but it’s the human nature that is the problem not the technology we use to ration resources. Let me know when this bug is fixed.
- sudosysgen 5y agoWell, that's not the problem we were talking about, is it? We were talking about the issue of bribery, which is made possible by the fungible nature of money.
- edgyquant 5y agoYes it is, namely this is the GP > Money is the one unpatchable zero-day for every platform and service on earth. To which the response was that Karl Marx had submitted a fix
- sudosysgen 5y agoYes, and? I think you missed a few steps. Someone then answered that bribery is still possible, and I answered again.