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> There are woolly intimations that self driving cars will read roadsigns to work out what the speed limit is for any stretch of road but the truth seems to be

by fouc 6y ago

> There are woolly intimations that self driving cars will read roadsigns to work out what the speed limit is for any stretch of road but the truth seems to be that they use the current GPS co-ordinates to access manually entered data on speedlimits. I actually didn't know Tesla cars relied on GPS + map data w/ speed limits until recently. What a disappointment, apparently it causes all sorts of issues with sudden braking/acceleration when the map data is wrong.

BBC-vs-neolibs 6y ago
Ten year old SAABs (it went bankrupt 10 years ago) read roadsigns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVekffxj5QE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVekffxj5QE
darkerside 6y ago
Maybe it uses both? My Honda can tell me the speed limit, and I'm sure it's not using the internet to do it.
- lights0123 6y ago
  There's no reason it couldn't have them stored locally. If your car has an on-screen map, it's probably been downloaded to the car directly like standalone GPS units popular years ago.
  - darkerside 6y ago
    It doesn't. And the sign seems to pop up after I pass a speed limit sign. EDIT: Here's info on it. https://www.dowhonda.com/2017/11/17/traffic-sign-recognition-system/ https://www.dowhonda.com/2017/11/17/traffic-sign-recognition...
  - ullevaal 6y ago
    Well, the problem with builtin GPS in cars is that you will often find yourself driving on brand new highways, while the car is complaining that you are driving in terrain and need to get back on the road.
- hoppyhoppy2 6y ago
  >I'm sure it's not using the internet to do it. How sure are you? >Daniel Dunn was about to sign a lease for a Honda Fit last year when a detail buried in the lengthy agreement caught his eye. Honda wanted to track the location of his vehicle, the contract stated, according to Dunn — a stipulation that struck the 69-year-old Temecula, Calif., retiree as a bit odd. [...] >There are 78 million cars on the road with an embedded cyber connection, a feature that makes monitoring customers easier, according to ABI Research. By 2021, according to the technology research firm Gartner, 98 percent of new cars sold in the United States and in Europe will be connected, a feature that is being highlighted this week here at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. >After being asked on multiple occasions what the company does with collected data, Natalie Kumaratne, a Honda spokeswoman, said that the company “cannot provide specifics at this time.” Kumaratne instead sent a copy of an owner’s manual for a Honda Clarity that notes that the vehicle is equipped with multiple monitoring systems that transmit data at a rate determined by Honda. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2018/01/15/big-brother-on-wheels-why-your-car-company-may-know-more-about-you-than-your-spouse/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2018/01/1...
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    >> I'm sure it's not using the internet to do it. > How sure are you? Pretty sure. The Honda Sensing display of the local speed limit changes on the dashboard at the instant you pass the sign, it's too exact to be using GPS. Nobody has geocoded the location of every sign in America, that would be too much work. Also, it's often wrong but in ways that you would be wrong if you were just reading the signs. For example, it will switch to 55 MPH speed limit in a 70 MPH zone on the interstate after it sees a sign that is intended for trucks only.
    - asdff 6y ago
      My garmin does this instant speed change, and it is pulling GPS.
      - jeffbee 6y ago
        Does your Garmin also refuse to say anything until you pass the first sign, and also stop indicating the speed limit if it's been a long time since you saw one, and also from time to time pick up spurious roadside signals as speed limits, indicating 70-100 MPH in 25 MPH zones, and also finally does your Garmin stop indicating speed limits if you cover its forward-facing camera with a piece of tape? I think the clearest indication that Honda Sensing does not use location data for speed limits is that Honda Sensing is available on cars that don't have GPS at all.
klmadfejno 6y ago
I think the risk of a car missing a speed sign, or misinterpreting one, or reading something that looks like a speed limit sign but isn't, is a much bigger threat.
WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
And sometimes the map is wrong but the sign is stolen or unreadable.
- erikpukinskis 6y ago
  In which case no one knows what the speed limit is, AI or not.
ipython 6y ago
I have an Audi that has both speed limit info and stop light info in the dash. I know for a fact that it uses the camera for the speed limit signs as it will interpret school zone areas. Sometimes it misses the “end school zone” sign or not recognize the yellow border around the school zone begin sign. You can see the display become out of sync with the road conditions until the next speed limit sign appears. As far as the stop light data, that’s fed into Audi through a select number of state DOTs (mine is one of them). It’s almost magical that it can tell you when the light will turn green.
- zinok 6y ago
  Are you sure it's not using static data generated by a car which has driven the same roads and then has had speed limit sign detection run on the captured video?
  - ipython 6y ago
    Yes, it does the recognition on the car through a front facing camera.
cbm-vic-20 6y ago
It would be cool if the signs could have a low density error correcting code on them (maybe even only using a paint that can be seen in infrared) that would let the computers have more confidence in what they're seeing.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  You mean some codes like a standard shape and color, colored borders, standard fonts, and standardized messages?
zinok 6y ago
However, as far as I can tell, the GPS data, in at least some cases, comes from Streetview-type camera cars which drive along the roads and capture the roadsigns. On French highways there are context-dependent speed limit signs which look exactly like normal signs but with a small additional panel below which tells you when they apply. Eg, big 70 in a round red circle, with a small picture of a car towing a trailer below. Eg https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.zXrJslBWEkcATgzHIENzCgHaLj%26pid%3DApi&f=1 https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F... which obviously only applies to cars with trailers. Google maps (on my phone, not built-in to the car in any way) would constantly tell me that the speed limit of the road was that of the last such sign regardless of the specificity.

by fouc 6y ago

BBC-vs-neolibs 6y ago

Ten year old SAABs (it went bankrupt 10 years ago) read roadsigns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVekffxj5QE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVekffxj5QE

darkerside 6y ago

Maybe it uses both? My Honda can tell me the speed limit, and I'm sure it's not using the internet to do it.

lights0123 6y ago
There's no reason it couldn't have them stored locally. If your car has an on-screen map, it's probably been downloaded to the car directly like standalone GPS units popular years ago.
- darkerside 6y ago
  It doesn't. And the sign seems to pop up after I pass a speed limit sign. EDIT: Here's info on it. https://www.dowhonda.com/2017/11/17/traffic-sign-recognition-system/ https://www.dowhonda.com/2017/11/17/traffic-sign-recognition...
- ullevaal 6y ago
  Well, the problem with builtin GPS in cars is that you will often find yourself driving on brand new highways, while the car is complaining that you are driving in terrain and need to get back on the road.
hoppyhoppy2 6y ago
>I'm sure it's not using the internet to do it. How sure are you? >Daniel Dunn was about to sign a lease for a Honda Fit last year when a detail buried in the lengthy agreement caught his eye. Honda wanted to track the location of his vehicle, the contract stated, according to Dunn — a stipulation that struck the 69-year-old Temecula, Calif., retiree as a bit odd. [...] >There are 78 million cars on the road with an embedded cyber connection, a feature that makes monitoring customers easier, according to ABI Research. By 2021, according to the technology research firm Gartner, 98 percent of new cars sold in the United States and in Europe will be connected, a feature that is being highlighted this week here at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. >After being asked on multiple occasions what the company does with collected data, Natalie Kumaratne, a Honda spokeswoman, said that the company “cannot provide specifics at this time.” Kumaratne instead sent a copy of an owner’s manual for a Honda Clarity that notes that the vehicle is equipped with multiple monitoring systems that transmit data at a rate determined by Honda. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2018/01/15/big-brother-on-wheels-why-your-car-company-may-know-more-about-you-than-your-spouse/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2018/01/1...
- jeffbee 6y ago
  >> I'm sure it's not using the internet to do it. > How sure are you? Pretty sure. The Honda Sensing display of the local speed limit changes on the dashboard at the instant you pass the sign, it's too exact to be using GPS. Nobody has geocoded the location of every sign in America, that would be too much work. Also, it's often wrong but in ways that you would be wrong if you were just reading the signs. For example, it will switch to 55 MPH speed limit in a 70 MPH zone on the interstate after it sees a sign that is intended for trucks only.
  - asdff 6y ago
    My garmin does this instant speed change, and it is pulling GPS.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      Does your Garmin also refuse to say anything until you pass the first sign, and also stop indicating the speed limit if it's been a long time since you saw one, and also from time to time pick up spurious roadside signals as speed limits, indicating 70-100 MPH in 25 MPH zones, and also finally does your Garmin stop indicating speed limits if you cover its forward-facing camera with a piece of tape? I think the clearest indication that Honda Sensing does not use location data for speed limits is that Honda Sensing is available on cars that don't have GPS at all.

klmadfejno 6y ago

I think the risk of a car missing a speed sign, or misinterpreting one, or reading something that looks like a speed limit sign but isn't, is a much bigger threat.

WesolyKubeczek 6y ago

And sometimes the map is wrong but the sign is stolen or unreadable.

erikpukinskis 6y ago
In which case no one knows what the speed limit is, AI or not.

ipython 6y ago

I have an Audi that has both speed limit info and stop light info in the dash. I know for a fact that it uses the camera for the speed limit signs as it will interpret school zone areas. Sometimes it misses the “end school zone” sign or not recognize the yellow border around the school zone begin sign. You can see the display become out of sync with the road conditions until the next speed limit sign appears. As far as the stop light data, that’s fed into Audi through a select number of state DOTs (mine is one of them). It’s almost magical that it can tell you when the light will turn green.

zinok 6y ago
Are you sure it's not using static data generated by a car which has driven the same roads and then has had speed limit sign detection run on the captured video?
- ipython 6y ago
  Yes, it does the recognition on the car through a front facing camera.

cbm-vic-20 6y ago

It would be cool if the signs could have a low density error correcting code on them (maybe even only using a paint that can be seen in infrared) that would let the computers have more confidence in what they're seeing.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
marcosdumay 6y ago
You mean some codes like a standard shape and color, colored borders, standard fonts, and standardized messages?

zinok 6y ago

However, as far as I can tell, the GPS data, in at least some cases, comes from Streetview-type camera cars which drive along the roads and capture the roadsigns. On French highways there are context-dependent speed limit signs which look exactly like normal signs but with a small additional panel below which tells you when they apply. Eg, big 70 in a round red circle, with a small picture of a car towing a trailer below. Eg https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.zXrJslBWEkcATgzHIENzCgHaLj%26pid%3DApi&f=1 https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F... which obviously only applies to cars with trailers. Google maps (on my phone, not built-in to the car in any way) would constantly tell me that the speed limit of the road was that of the last such sign regardless of the specificity.