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Note that these tweets are only hidden for anyone in India (not removed from Twitter) since these do not violate Twitter’s terms but are being forced off the pl

by wtmt 5y ago

Note that these tweets are only hidden for anyone in India (not removed from Twitter) since these do not violate Twitter’s terms but are being forced off the platform by a government order. I wish Twitter would put up a better fight on this, but Twitter, WhatsApp and Facebook have been on the receiving end of criticism and threats by the central government, and it looks like Twitter chooses its battles to ensure its own survival first. What else can we expect from social networks anyway?

drawkbox 5y ago
The information being blocked down the memory hole is just for the people that need to see that information. Concentration in the tech world to so few platforms is helping build that memory hole capability. At least people outside can see that information, not ideal though. If we had more platforms and less concentration it would be harder to build these walls.
29athrowaway 5y ago
Alternatively, they can fight, be banned from India, and then have to compete against Indian Twitter 5 years from now in the international arena.
- KMag 5y ago
  I'm not familiar with Indian law, but would it be legal for them to be more transparent by replacing the offending tweets with "This message has been hidden in India by order of the Indian government"? On the other hand, my understanding is that Twitter did self-report these actions to Harvard, so they should be given some credit.
fossuser 5y ago
We should expect better: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html This is a disappointing outcome of our community (software engineers, hackers, builders) and our technology - the web as we've built it. The promise of decentralized communications empowering people. We should expect more, those in a position to do the right thing at Twitter should try to do so. I hope long term something like urbit wins out and actually empowers its users. What's the point of being a free western country if the people that need the support most are the most ignored?
- nine_k 5y ago
  You can only empower people against their government's desire to a certain limit. The more powerful is the government, the quicker it is at slapping your hand, and the more efficient it is at it. If you operate in a country, you normally can't avoid the limitations of the country's laws, no matter how nonsensical you might find these laws. Technology does not change this equation materially, given strong enough law enforcement.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  > What's the point of being a free western country if the people that need the support most are the most ignored? Unfortunately enlightenment / classically liberal values (different from leftist liberal values) have been on the decline in the US, particularly with younger generations. Free speech is one of those values under attack. Even the ACLU, under different leadership than in the past, is wavering on free speech (https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/ https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/). James Kirchick spoke at length about this unfortunate evolution in a recent podcast (https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/podcast-144-james-kirchick-on-the-disintegration-of-the-aclu/ https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/podcast-144-james-kirchick-...). The West (as nations, corporations, citizens, etc) is not in a position to proselytize on this front any longer. Although the US government is bound by the first amendment, we have effectively outsourced our right to free speech over to private monopolies that aggressively censor views that don’t fit progressive perspectives. Biden even recently said that no constitutional amendment is absolute, which seems like further normalization of erosion of fundamental rights. With the floodgate of censorship already being opened in the West, it seems there is no one on the side of unfettered speech and intellectual freedom today. At the same time I understand why other nations are wary of both the power vested in social media and the influence of savvy or highly active participants therein. It’s a risk for local culture, politics, and stability to be undermined through that channel. Even European nations are increasingly skeptical of outside influences corrupting their sovereignty (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threat-american-universities.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threa...).
  - fossuser 5y ago
aravindet 5y ago
Correct, I do not think it is realistic to expect Twitter to behave differently. I do not believe it's Twitter's behavior that the original article is trying to highlight.
duskwuff 5y ago
> I wish Twitter would put up a better fight on this India banned TikTok last year after the app was determined to be "prejudicial to sovereignty and integrity of India, defence of India, security of state and public order". Twitter doesn't want to be next.
- fossuser 5y ago
  TikTok's ban is different (and arguably reasonable). The way TikTok manipulates its feed to serve the CCP's interests and influence public sentiment in the country is a threat. Things like downplaying the CCP's invasion of HK. https://stratechery.com/2020/the-tiktok-war/ https://stratechery.com/2020/the-tiktok-war/ That's basically the opposite of what's happening here. TikTok's threat is foreign government manipulation of the public and the block is blocking that government manipulation. Here if Twitter got blocked it'd be because they refused to implement the government manipulation - it's a difference in kind.
  - radiator 5y ago
    But from the point of view of the Indian government, those two "opposite" things are the same.
op03 5y ago
All this is built on the terrible assumption that Social Media is critical to solving complex problems of society. All they do is dump waste amounts of shit on the plates of decision makers and then crucify them for problems no one can solve or have capacities to solve only badly. People think this is a great way to take out buffons like Modi or Trump. But the truth is such systems will take out anyone propped up especially dealing with complex problems.
- smt88 5y ago
  I don't think social media is inherently bad. It's just easy to weaponize it given enough resources. If people continue to believe that public posts on Twitter and Facebook accurately reflect reality, and it's possible for governments to silently (or not silently!) censor those platforms, then social media becomes an incredibly effective tool for propaganda. My personal solution is not to use any public social medium (places where I consume posts from anonymous strangers) except HN. Unfortunately that solution can't scale.
  - op03 5y ago
    Its lose-lose for everyone working on complex stuff. Leaders of all stripes will lose no matter what position they take on anything Complex, as social media enables the mob to immediately point out flaws and crucify them. No one can lead in those conditions. Only the crazy or totally stupid will end up getting propped into leadership roles.
paxys 5y ago
How is Twitter going to fight exactly? They can be banned nationwide (and local employees can face charges) with one order from the central government, and no court can help them. Same happened to TikTok last year.
hesarenu 5y ago
So how i can view it to see if those are what the govt claims?
captn3m0 5y ago
Twitter fought a court battle on this in India just a few months ago[a], [b]. The government even threatened Twitter Execs with jail time[0], [1]. Making this worse are the new Information Technology (Intermediary Guidelines and Digital Media Ethics Code) Rules, 2021 (the “Intermediary Rules”)[3]. Among the many issues, they increase obligations on large social media platforms (above 5e5 users), enforce government takedowns within 36 hours, enable mandatory social media verification, enforce algorithmic (AI-driven) censorship and change intermediary liability to criminal. IFF has gotten one victory against these in court[2], but there's a long way to go. [0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-twitter-with-penalties-if-it-doesnt-block-accounts-11612364787 https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-twitter-with-pe... [1]: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/pranavdixit/india-threatens-twitter-jail https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/pranavdixit/india-threa... [a]: https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/01/twitter-restricts-over-a-dozen-high-profile-accounts-in-india-following-legal-demand/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/01/twitter-restricts-over-a-d... [b]: https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/india-sends-warning-to-twitter-over-lifting-block-on-accounts-and-noncompliance-of-order/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/india-sends-warning-to-twi... [3]: https://internetfreedom.in/intermediaries-rules-2021/ https://internetfreedom.in/intermediaries-rules-2021/ [2]: https://internetfreedom.in/kerala-hc-grants-a-stay-of-the-operation-of-part-iii-of-the-intermediaries-rules-2021-to-livelaw/ https://internetfreedom.in/kerala-hc-grants-a-stay-of-the-op...
- LittlePeter 5y ago
  why would you abbreviate 500000 as 5e5 and not say 500K or 500,000?
  - erik_seaberg 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakh is an Indian unit. They write five lakh where I'd write half a million.
    - captn3m0 5y ago
      Yup, the number in my head was 5 lakh and it doesn't occur to me to write it as 0.5M. I've been forcing myself to remember lakh=1e5,crore=1e7,million=1e6 while doing calculations these days, so just happened to write it that way.

by wtmt 5y ago

drawkbox 5y ago

The information being blocked down the memory hole is just for the people that need to see that information. Concentration in the tech world to so few platforms is helping build that memory hole capability. At least people outside can see that information, not ideal though. If we had more platforms and less concentration it would be harder to build these walls.

29athrowaway 5y ago

Alternatively, they can fight, be banned from India, and then have to compete against Indian Twitter 5 years from now in the international arena.

KMag 5y ago
I'm not familiar with Indian law, but would it be legal for them to be more transparent by replacing the offending tweets with "This message has been hidden in India by order of the Indian government"? On the other hand, my understanding is that Twitter did self-report these actions to Harvard, so they should be given some credit.

fossuser 5y ago

We should expect better: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html This is a disappointing outcome of our community (software engineers, hackers, builders) and our technology - the web as we've built it. The promise of decentralized communications empowering people. We should expect more, those in a position to do the right thing at Twitter should try to do so. I hope long term something like urbit wins out and actually empowers its users. What's the point of being a free western country if the people that need the support most are the most ignored?

nine_k 5y ago
You can only empower people against their government's desire to a certain limit. The more powerful is the government, the quicker it is at slapping your hand, and the more efficient it is at it. If you operate in a country, you normally can't avoid the limitations of the country's laws, no matter how nonsensical you might find these laws. Technology does not change this equation materially, given strong enough law enforcement.
throwawaysea 5y ago
> What's the point of being a free western country if the people that need the support most are the most ignored? Unfortunately enlightenment / classically liberal values (different from leftist liberal values) have been on the decline in the US, particularly with younger generations. Free speech is one of those values under attack. Even the ACLU, under different leadership than in the past, is wavering on free speech (https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/ https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/). James Kirchick spoke at length about this unfortunate evolution in a recent podcast (https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/podcast-144-james-kirchick-on-the-disintegration-of-the-aclu/ https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/podcast-144-james-kirchick-...). The West (as nations, corporations, citizens, etc) is not in a position to proselytize on this front any longer. Although the US government is bound by the first amendment, we have effectively outsourced our right to free speech over to private monopolies that aggressively censor views that don’t fit progressive perspectives. Biden even recently said that no constitutional amendment is absolute, which seems like further normalization of erosion of fundamental rights. With the floodgate of censorship already being opened in the West, it seems there is no one on the side of unfettered speech and intellectual freedom today. At the same time I understand why other nations are wary of both the power vested in social media and the influence of savvy or highly active participants therein. It’s a risk for local culture, politics, and stability to be undermined through that channel. Even European nations are increasingly skeptical of outside influences corrupting their sovereignty (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threat-american-universities.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/world/europe/france-threa...).
- fossuser 5y ago

aravindet 5y ago

Correct, I do not think it is realistic to expect Twitter to behave differently. I do not believe it's Twitter's behavior that the original article is trying to highlight.

duskwuff 5y ago

> I wish Twitter would put up a better fight on this India banned TikTok last year after the app was determined to be "prejudicial to sovereignty and integrity of India, defence of India, security of state and public order". Twitter doesn't want to be next.

fossuser 5y ago
TikTok's ban is different (and arguably reasonable). The way TikTok manipulates its feed to serve the CCP's interests and influence public sentiment in the country is a threat. Things like downplaying the CCP's invasion of HK. https://stratechery.com/2020/the-tiktok-war/ https://stratechery.com/2020/the-tiktok-war/ That's basically the opposite of what's happening here. TikTok's threat is foreign government manipulation of the public and the block is blocking that government manipulation. Here if Twitter got blocked it'd be because they refused to implement the government manipulation - it's a difference in kind.
- radiator 5y ago
  But from the point of view of the Indian government, those two "opposite" things are the same.

op03 5y ago

All this is built on the terrible assumption that Social Media is critical to solving complex problems of society. All they do is dump waste amounts of shit on the plates of decision makers and then crucify them for problems no one can solve or have capacities to solve only badly. People think this is a great way to take out buffons like Modi or Trump. But the truth is such systems will take out anyone propped up especially dealing with complex problems.

smt88 5y ago
I don't think social media is inherently bad. It's just easy to weaponize it given enough resources. If people continue to believe that public posts on Twitter and Facebook accurately reflect reality, and it's possible for governments to silently (or not silently!) censor those platforms, then social media becomes an incredibly effective tool for propaganda. My personal solution is not to use any public social medium (places where I consume posts from anonymous strangers) except HN. Unfortunately that solution can't scale.
- op03 5y ago
  Its lose-lose for everyone working on complex stuff. Leaders of all stripes will lose no matter what position they take on anything Complex, as social media enables the mob to immediately point out flaws and crucify them. No one can lead in those conditions. Only the crazy or totally stupid will end up getting propped into leadership roles.

paxys 5y ago

How is Twitter going to fight exactly? They can be banned nationwide (and local employees can face charges) with one order from the central government, and no court can help them. Same happened to TikTok last year.

hesarenu 5y ago

So how i can view it to see if those are what the govt claims?

captn3m0 5y ago

Twitter fought a court battle on this in India just a few months ago[a], [b]. The government even threatened Twitter Execs with jail time[0], [1]. Making this worse are the new Information Technology (Intermediary Guidelines and Digital Media Ethics Code) Rules, 2021 (the “Intermediary Rules”)[3]. Among the many issues, they increase obligations on large social media platforms (above 5e5 users), enforce government takedowns within 36 hours, enable mandatory social media verification, enforce algorithmic (AI-driven) censorship and change intermediary liability to criminal. IFF has gotten one victory against these in court[2], but there's a long way to go. [0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-twitter-with-penalties-if-it-doesnt-block-accounts-11612364787 https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-threatens-twitter-with-pe... [1]: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/pranavdixit/india-threatens-twitter-jail https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/pranavdixit/india-threa... [a]: https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/01/twitter-restricts-over-a-dozen-high-profile-accounts-in-india-following-legal-demand/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/01/twitter-restricts-over-a-d... [b]: https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/india-sends-warning-to-twitter-over-lifting-block-on-accounts-and-noncompliance-of-order/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/03/india-sends-warning-to-twi... [3]: https://internetfreedom.in/intermediaries-rules-2021/ https://internetfreedom.in/intermediaries-rules-2021/ [2]: https://internetfreedom.in/kerala-hc-grants-a-stay-of-the-operation-of-part-iii-of-the-intermediaries-rules-2021-to-livelaw/ https://internetfreedom.in/kerala-hc-grants-a-stay-of-the-op...

LittlePeter 5y ago
why would you abbreviate 500000 as 5e5 and not say 500K or 500,000?
- erik_seaberg 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakh is an Indian unit. They write five lakh where I'd write half a million.
  - captn3m0 5y ago
    Yup, the number in my head was 5 lakh and it doesn't occur to me to write it as 0.5M. I've been forcing myself to remember lakh=1e5,crore=1e7,million=1e6 while doing calculations these days, so just happened to write it that way.