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Why Bitcoin Is Bad for the Environment

23 points by andy9775 5y ago

Black101 5y ago
Maybe the Government will make it illegal to mine new bitcoins and my bitcoins will go to the moon?
- joe_the_user 5y ago
  Maybe the government will make it illegal to sell or possess bitcoins. That might not impact those coins as favorably.
  - Black101 5y ago
    I would like to see that too
    - DangitBobby 5y ago
      Once speculators stop buying, I doubt the price will stay so high.
      - Black101 5y ago
        That is two big assumptions...
sintaxi 5y ago
Bitcoin uses far less energy than fiat currencies - and its not even close.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I find the recent push to frame crypto as an ecological fight mildly interesting as it clearly appears to be somewhat coordinated. That does not mean it is not true. But it is genuinely hard to not to wonder who is setting that on the agenda.
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  Everything is a conspiracy with crypto promoters.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    Conspiracy is an interesting concept in my mind. Isn't it interesting that claiming someone is a conspiracy theorist is a way to dismiss arguments now without attempting to even consider those arguments? It is a very useful tactic.
    - jonny_eh 5y ago
      > it clearly appears to be somewhat coordinated That is not an argument and until there's evidence it's a conspiracy theory.
crazygringo 5y ago
Was this post flagged? It was near the top of the front page 5 minutes ago. Now it's not anywhere in the top 200 stories. The fact that an entire natural gas power plant in upstate NY was purchased to exclusively power Bitcoin mining seems to be pretty newsworthy, at a time where we're trying to cut carbon.
remolacha 5y ago
At its core, criticism of Bitcoin as bad for the environment is premised on the notion that Bitcoin is just a pointless game, rather than a useful piece of infrastructure. If it achieves everything that Bitcoin maximalists claim it will (more efficient financial rails, self-sovereign identity), then it is a cost worth paying. If needed, we can better incentivize green bitcoin mining with carbon taxes or renewable energy mining subsidies.
- crazygringo 5y ago
  From the article: > According to the Web site Digiconomist, a single bitcoin transaction uses the same amount of power that the average American household consumes in a month, and is responsible for roughly a million times more carbon emissions than a single Visa transaction. How can you justify that as a cost worth paying? A month's worth of electricity for a single transaction? It doesn't matter what you do with taxes or renewables. That's insane.
  - remolacha 5y ago
    It's a misleading comparison. They are comparing the cost of an on-chain Bitcoin transaction to the immediate energy cost of a Visa transaction. On average, one on-chain Bitcoin transaction corresponds to 1000s of total transactions, since most transactions occur through L2s like exchanges, the lightning network, or PayPal. This L2 activity is written to chain batchwise, and only when necessary. And the article doesn't calculate the true total cost of running the Visa network, which also involves 10s of thousands of Visa employees and facilities, not to mention the energy consumed by the Federal Reserve in minting and recycling physical money, and preventing fraud and counterfeiting.
    - jonny_eh 5y ago
      > preventing fraud and counterfeiting Bitcoin doesn't have that as a feature, so it's not fair to count that against fiat money.
- andy9775 5y ago
bitcoinmonger 5y ago
I don't understand why Bitcoin has been designed to burn fossil fuels when it should just as easily be able to be run using green energy. Until this is changed I can't see cryptocurrencies having a future, despite their utility.
- andy9775 5y ago
  Exactly. If bitcoin mining drives demand for solar, leads to solar production jobs in the US and increases R&D leading to more efficient panels - awesome. But if companies start to go public based on the premise of mining bitcoin at the cheapest possible price - I doubt they'll invest in Solar/wind/geo[0]. [0] Yes, I know mining in Iceland is a thing. But mines in Iceland don't make up a huge chunk of the network.

23 points by andy9775 5y ago

Black101 5y ago

Maybe the Government will make it illegal to mine new bitcoins and my bitcoins will go to the moon?

joe_the_user 5y ago
Maybe the government will make it illegal to sell or possess bitcoins. That might not impact those coins as favorably.
- Black101 5y ago
  I would like to see that too
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    Once speculators stop buying, I doubt the price will stay so high.
    - Black101 5y ago
      That is two big assumptions...

sintaxi 5y ago

Bitcoin uses far less energy than fiat currencies - and its not even close.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I find the recent push to frame crypto as an ecological fight mildly interesting as it clearly appears to be somewhat coordinated. That does not mean it is not true. But it is genuinely hard to not to wonder who is setting that on the agenda.

jonny_eh 5y ago
Everything is a conspiracy with crypto promoters.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  Conspiracy is an interesting concept in my mind. Isn't it interesting that claiming someone is a conspiracy theorist is a way to dismiss arguments now without attempting to even consider those arguments? It is a very useful tactic.
  - jonny_eh 5y ago
    > it clearly appears to be somewhat coordinated That is not an argument and until there's evidence it's a conspiracy theory.

crazygringo 5y ago

Was this post flagged? It was near the top of the front page 5 minutes ago. Now it's not anywhere in the top 200 stories. The fact that an entire natural gas power plant in upstate NY was purchased to exclusively power Bitcoin mining seems to be pretty newsworthy, at a time where we're trying to cut carbon.

remolacha 5y ago

At its core, criticism of Bitcoin as bad for the environment is premised on the notion that Bitcoin is just a pointless game, rather than a useful piece of infrastructure. If it achieves everything that Bitcoin maximalists claim it will (more efficient financial rails, self-sovereign identity), then it is a cost worth paying. If needed, we can better incentivize green bitcoin mining with carbon taxes or renewable energy mining subsidies.

crazygringo 5y ago
From the article: > According to the Web site Digiconomist, a single bitcoin transaction uses the same amount of power that the average American household consumes in a month, and is responsible for roughly a million times more carbon emissions than a single Visa transaction. How can you justify that as a cost worth paying? A month's worth of electricity for a single transaction? It doesn't matter what you do with taxes or renewables. That's insane.
- remolacha 5y ago
  It's a misleading comparison. They are comparing the cost of an on-chain Bitcoin transaction to the immediate energy cost of a Visa transaction. On average, one on-chain Bitcoin transaction corresponds to 1000s of total transactions, since most transactions occur through L2s like exchanges, the lightning network, or PayPal. This L2 activity is written to chain batchwise, and only when necessary. And the article doesn't calculate the true total cost of running the Visa network, which also involves 10s of thousands of Visa employees and facilities, not to mention the energy consumed by the Federal Reserve in minting and recycling physical money, and preventing fraud and counterfeiting.
  - jonny_eh 5y ago
    > preventing fraud and counterfeiting Bitcoin doesn't have that as a feature, so it's not fair to count that against fiat money.
andy9775 5y ago

bitcoinmonger 5y ago

I don't understand why Bitcoin has been designed to burn fossil fuels when it should just as easily be able to be run using green energy. Until this is changed I can't see cryptocurrencies having a future, despite their utility.

andy9775 5y ago
Exactly. If bitcoin mining drives demand for solar, leads to solar production jobs in the US and increases R&D leading to more efficient panels - awesome. But if companies start to go public based on the premise of mining bitcoin at the cheapest possible price - I doubt they'll invest in Solar/wind/geo[0]. [0] Yes, I know mining in Iceland is a thing. But mines in Iceland don't make up a huge chunk of the network.