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What a disgusting and false comment https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fact-check-meme-shows-incorrect-homicide-stats-race/5739522002/ ht

What a disgusting and false comment https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fact-check-meme-shows-incorrect-homicide-stats-race/5739522002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fac... - Rates of white-on-white and Black-on-Black homicide are similar, at around 80% and 90% - Rates of Black-on-white and white-on-Black homicide also within 8 points - Police kill Black people at disproportionate rates

bitcurious 5y ago
I encourage everyone to actually read the linked article and draw your own conclusions.
- cto_of_antifa 5y ago
  nah. This rhetorical technique of posting raw data and "begging the question" is a pretty frequent white supremacist talking point. Important to label its argument as disingenuous and move on.
tynpeddler 5y ago
That article only covers homicide, which is a relatively rare crime. There are many other types of crimes that can warrant a police response and arrest such as property crime, assault, robbery, etc. In addition, the link provided only covers relative homicide rates, ie what percentage of homicides that occur are committed by member of a given race. It does not address what percentage of individuals in a given demographic that have committed homicide. These sources from the fbi provide a bit better context: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-... https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/revcoa18.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/revcoa18.pdf Of course, looking at crime statistics only through the lens of race and ethnicity also misses a lot of context. Poverty rates have a huge impact on crime rates and due to racism, both present and past, poverty rates in the American black demographic are much higher than poverty rates in the American white demographic. https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 https://www.statista.com/statistics/422520/us-rate-of-violent-victimization-by-poverty-level/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/422520/us-rate-of-violen...
lolinder 5y ago
Those stats don't say what you think they say. Those show that white people are no more likely to kill black people than black people are to kill white people. They do not say that black people are no more likely to kill someone.
- commentingbadly 5y ago
  > They do not say that black people are no more likely to kill someone. And you believe it is racial makeup that makes a person more likely to kill someone? I disagree and I think race has nothing to do with it
- bingbong70 5y ago
  Large % of black Americans don't trust the criminal justice system and police, I expect this leads to more extrajudicial crime fighting carried out by the community that skews assault/murder rates.
  - lolinder 5y ago
    That's not skewed numbers, "extrajudicial crime fighting" that ends with someone dead is correctly categorized as murder. Lack of trust in the system is a problem, but retributive killings are not the solution.
    - bingbong70 5y ago
      >someone dead is correctly categorized as murder. Yes but how the data is recorded and interpreted is definitely skewed by a population not being able to rely-on/trust what should be public services. What is the correct solution for tax payers that are criminalized by the institutions that they are forced to fund? For decades nobody even believed the black horror stories about police misconduct until body cams/camera phones were widely available and the news was forced to cover them.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > "extrajudicial crime fighting" that ends with someone dead is correctly categorized as murder. That is no more true than it is without the word “extrajudicial”. It’s homicide, sure, but not all homicide is murder, and not all exteadjudicial crime fighting that results in death meets the definition of murder (or even criminal homicide.) > Lack of trust in the system is a problem, but retributive killings are not the solution. Retributive killings (and extradjudicial response generally) aren’t intended as solution to lack of trust in the system, they are solutions to other problems for which the palpable hostility of the system forecloses otherwise superior solutions. Dismantling the system and replacing it with one that is trustworthy is the solution, but it was one that is actively opposed by those whosd relative position is supported by the features of the system that render it untrustworthy to the population at issue.
Rebelgecko 5y ago
I think the article uses an odd way to frame it. To me, a rate should be measured in "people per year" or "people per year normalized by population size". Meanwhile the article is using the word "rate" to refer to what is actually the ratio between two different rates. The FBI stats seem to back up the above commenter (however one would expect policing biases to be reflected in their statistics). If you compare a random white person[1] and a random black person, the black person is ~5x more likely to be murdered by someone of the same race[2]. Even though the absolute number of murders is about the same, the population sizes are very different, which lines up with one group being disproportionately represented in arrests[3] 1: It's worth noting that the FBI stats lump most Hispanic/Latino people under 'white', I'm not sure if the numbers would look different if you used the colloquial definition of 'white' 2: 0.001% chance of being murdered per year vs a .006% chance 3: If anything I think that's proof of of institutional racism's impact. I'm guessing the disparity is really just showing income inequality
- commentingbadly 5y ago
  > The FBI stats Is there a Goodwin's Law for citing FBI statistics yet? > I'm not sure if the numbers would look different if you used the colloquial definition of 'white' You say you're not sure, but you seem to be suggesting something. Care to say it out loud? > If anything I think that's proof of of institutional racism's impact. I'm guessing the disparity is really just showing income inequality But, you spent the whole post talking about race, but you really think it is income? I'm confused.
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    >You say you're not sure, but you seem to be suggesting something. Care to say it out loud? I'm suggesting that the fractions might be different but it's a pain to do that math on my phone's calculator while also referring to pages in a web browser so I won't bother. Feel free to run the numbers if you're so inclined and update me! >But, you spent the whole post talking about race, but you really think it is income? I'm confused. I don't think it's controversial to say that racism and classism in the USA are inextricably linked. Sometimes this is even enforced via laws (a common example being the disparity in sentencing guidelines for crack vs other forms of cocaine). >Is there a Goodwin's Law for citing FBI statistics yet Don't make bad faith attempts to invoke Godwin's law. I cited FBI statistics because you used them first in your own comment.
helloworld11 5y ago
Please do tell me what's "disgusting" about mentioning a statistical fact? Feel free to look at the FBI's uniform crime statistics, among others and see what I mean. Ideological considerations only make progress harder when they blatantly try to ignore realities. As for your claim that police disproportionately kill black people, well, actually it's a bit more complicated than that and doesn't quite negate what I mentioned above about crime stats. Every unjustifiable death of a black individual or anyone at the hands of the police is a tragedy and a probabl crime that needs to be addressed, but here, read these if you like, for additional perspective: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-p... https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-rac...
- commentingbadly 5y ago
  Maybe you think you are being helpful and informative, but citing the FBI statistics is a tired trope and you are behaving, online, indistinguishably from hardcore racists. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/despite-being-only-13-percent-of-the-population https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/despite-being-only-13-percent... EDIT: themgt, this is not a throwaway account. I'm a long time user that often gets banned and returns to try again to have reasonable discourse. I find it hard because for educated people, many on this site are full of unexamined biases. Ok, so I cited another take on crime statistics when presented with the super-trope of OP citing the FBI crime statistics. What I'm trying to do is educate you and others that if you don't socialize with the other half of the internet, well they see someone post the FBI crime statistics and they think, "Wow, what a total racist or a total knucklehead." What is the truth that you want me to know that you don't think I don't? I'll tell you the truth that I want you to know: if you reach for the FBI crime statistics instead of the testimony and experience of law-abiding people of color then your trust is in authority and not in the integrity of good people everywhere
  - themgt 5y ago
    You posted the link to USA Today which cites and links multiple times to the exact same FBI Uniform Crime Reporting statistics, which are the USA's canonical summary of national crime data. I am flagging this because you're a throwaway account who's calling people Nazis and "hardcore racists" for referring to the exact same dataset you yourself brought into the discussion. This type of grossly unprincipled behavior is why having a productive discussion about crime in this country is impossible.

bitcurious 5y ago

I encourage everyone to actually read the linked article and draw your own conclusions.

cto_of_antifa 5y ago
nah. This rhetorical technique of posting raw data and "begging the question" is a pretty frequent white supremacist talking point. Important to label its argument as disingenuous and move on.

tynpeddler 5y ago

That article only covers homicide, which is a relatively rare crime. There are many other types of crimes that can warrant a police response and arrest such as property crime, assault, robbery, etc. In addition, the link provided only covers relative homicide rates, ie what percentage of homicides that occur are committed by member of a given race. It does not address what percentage of individuals in a given demographic that have committed homicide. These sources from the fbi provide a bit better context: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-... https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/revcoa18.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/revcoa18.pdf Of course, looking at crime statistics only through the lens of race and ethnicity also misses a lot of context. Poverty rates have a huge impact on crime rates and due to racism, both present and past, poverty rates in the American black demographic are much higher than poverty rates in the American white demographic. https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137 https://www.statista.com/statistics/422520/us-rate-of-violent-victimization-by-poverty-level/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/422520/us-rate-of-violen...

lolinder 5y ago

Those stats don't say what you think they say. Those show that white people are no more likely to kill black people than black people are to kill white people. They do not say that black people are no more likely to kill someone.

commentingbadly 5y ago
> They do not say that black people are no more likely to kill someone. And you believe it is racial makeup that makes a person more likely to kill someone? I disagree and I think race has nothing to do with it
bingbong70 5y ago
Large % of black Americans don't trust the criminal justice system and police, I expect this leads to more extrajudicial crime fighting carried out by the community that skews assault/murder rates.
- lolinder 5y ago
  That's not skewed numbers, "extrajudicial crime fighting" that ends with someone dead is correctly categorized as murder. Lack of trust in the system is a problem, but retributive killings are not the solution.
  - bingbong70 5y ago
    >someone dead is correctly categorized as murder. Yes but how the data is recorded and interpreted is definitely skewed by a population not being able to rely-on/trust what should be public services. What is the correct solution for tax payers that are criminalized by the institutions that they are forced to fund? For decades nobody even believed the black horror stories about police misconduct until body cams/camera phones were widely available and the news was forced to cover them.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > "extrajudicial crime fighting" that ends with someone dead is correctly categorized as murder. That is no more true than it is without the word “extrajudicial”. It’s homicide, sure, but not all homicide is murder, and not all exteadjudicial crime fighting that results in death meets the definition of murder (or even criminal homicide.) > Lack of trust in the system is a problem, but retributive killings are not the solution. Retributive killings (and extradjudicial response generally) aren’t intended as solution to lack of trust in the system, they are solutions to other problems for which the palpable hostility of the system forecloses otherwise superior solutions. Dismantling the system and replacing it with one that is trustworthy is the solution, but it was one that is actively opposed by those whosd relative position is supported by the features of the system that render it untrustworthy to the population at issue.

Rebelgecko 5y ago

I think the article uses an odd way to frame it. To me, a rate should be measured in "people per year" or "people per year normalized by population size". Meanwhile the article is using the word "rate" to refer to what is actually the ratio between two different rates. The FBI stats seem to back up the above commenter (however one would expect policing biases to be reflected in their statistics). If you compare a random white person[1] and a random black person, the black person is ~5x more likely to be murdered by someone of the same race[2]. Even though the absolute number of murders is about the same, the population sizes are very different, which lines up with one group being disproportionately represented in arrests[3] 1: It's worth noting that the FBI stats lump most Hispanic/Latino people under 'white', I'm not sure if the numbers would look different if you used the colloquial definition of 'white' 2: 0.001% chance of being murdered per year vs a .006% chance 3: If anything I think that's proof of of institutional racism's impact. I'm guessing the disparity is really just showing income inequality

commentingbadly 5y ago
> The FBI stats Is there a Goodwin's Law for citing FBI statistics yet? > I'm not sure if the numbers would look different if you used the colloquial definition of 'white' You say you're not sure, but you seem to be suggesting something. Care to say it out loud? > If anything I think that's proof of of institutional racism's impact. I'm guessing the disparity is really just showing income inequality But, you spent the whole post talking about race, but you really think it is income? I'm confused.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  >You say you're not sure, but you seem to be suggesting something. Care to say it out loud? I'm suggesting that the fractions might be different but it's a pain to do that math on my phone's calculator while also referring to pages in a web browser so I won't bother. Feel free to run the numbers if you're so inclined and update me! >But, you spent the whole post talking about race, but you really think it is income? I'm confused. I don't think it's controversial to say that racism and classism in the USA are inextricably linked. Sometimes this is even enforced via laws (a common example being the disparity in sentencing guidelines for crack vs other forms of cocaine). >Is there a Goodwin's Law for citing FBI statistics yet Don't make bad faith attempts to invoke Godwin's law. I cited FBI statistics because you used them first in your own comment.

helloworld11 5y ago

Please do tell me what's "disgusting" about mentioning a statistical fact? Feel free to look at the FBI's uniform crime statistics, among others and see what I mean. Ideological considerations only make progress harder when they blatantly try to ignore realities. As for your claim that police disproportionately kill black people, well, actually it's a bit more complicated than that and doesn't quite negate what I mentioned above about crime stats. Every unjustifiable death of a black individual or anyone at the hands of the police is a tragedy and a probabl crime that needs to be addressed, but here, read these if you like, for additional perspective: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-p... https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-rac...

commentingbadly 5y ago
Maybe you think you are being helpful and informative, but citing the FBI statistics is a tired trope and you are behaving, online, indistinguishably from hardcore racists. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/despite-being-only-13-percent-of-the-population https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/despite-being-only-13-percent... EDIT: themgt, this is not a throwaway account. I'm a long time user that often gets banned and returns to try again to have reasonable discourse. I find it hard because for educated people, many on this site are full of unexamined biases. Ok, so I cited another take on crime statistics when presented with the super-trope of OP citing the FBI crime statistics. What I'm trying to do is educate you and others that if you don't socialize with the other half of the internet, well they see someone post the FBI crime statistics and they think, "Wow, what a total racist or a total knucklehead." What is the truth that you want me to know that you don't think I don't? I'll tell you the truth that I want you to know: if you reach for the FBI crime statistics instead of the testimony and experience of law-abiding people of color then your trust is in authority and not in the integrity of good people everywhere
- themgt 5y ago
  You posted the link to USA Today which cites and links multiple times to the exact same FBI Uniform Crime Reporting statistics, which are the USA's canonical summary of national crime data. I am flagging this because you're a throwaway account who's calling people Nazis and "hardcore racists" for referring to the exact same dataset you yourself brought into the discussion. This type of grossly unprincipled behavior is why having a productive discussion about crime in this country is impossible.