8 ms·

Good for Newark! But, from what I understand, they gave the cops better training and got better result. That is how education works.

tomerico 5y ago
I disagree. The largest factors are likely to be culture (coming from leadership) and higher scrutiny (mentioned in the article as a requirement to report and investigate any use of force).
- yaml-ops-guy 5y ago
  Couldn’t possibly be a confluence of all the above? Not even in the tiniest degree?
  - bluecatswim 5y ago
    "Largest factor" implies there are others as well.
    - yaml-ops-guy 5y ago
      Ah ok, perhaps I fixated on the curt "I disagree", for a moment too long.
zero_deg_kevin 5y ago
They’re now proof points that governments can reduce police fatalities by training their police to use more than guns. This hopefully makes it a little easier to sue a city into the ground for failure to adequately train its police force.
- weswpg 5y ago
  Importantly, such training requires more funding, not "defunding the police" as some propose.
odonnellryan 5y ago
NJ is decent. We had one small issue of police violence during the large BLM protests. Compared to NY...
misiti3780 5y ago
Sam Harris has a new, very interesting podcast with Rener Gracie about police training and how inadequate it is across the entire United States. Officers in California get one - 4 hour course every two years to learn how to subdue criminals, and of the 4 hours, only one is actually spent training, the other three are instruction. Rener Gracie is obviously famous for Brazilian jiu-jitsu but he also trains police on how to subdue criminals in a safe way. He has some interesting ideas about how to identify bad cops also. It was worth the listen. https://samharris.org/podcasts/246-police-training-police-misconduct/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/246-police-training-police-mi...
- bitexploder 5y ago
  My BJJ gym offers deep discount to police. This is a good thing. I’ve rolled with many police fresh to grappling and even with my limited skills they are very easy to subdue. No wonder they resort to weapons (lethal and less than lethal) so quickly. I have been training a few years now.
  - nobodyandproud 5y ago
    Judo (the mother of bjj) is seeing a revival in police circles. It’s good to see grappling arts make a comeback, as there are plenty of non-lethal ways to make someone submit. Edit: For cases where the police officer already is in control.
    - bitexploder 5y ago
      I think American wrestling and or BJJ are much more practical than Judo as a martial art for police, but Judo is better than nothing. Judo is good for getting things to the ground, but the ground system of Judo is inadequate for many situations. (I’ve trained Judo and with many judokas, even advanced ones just aren’t very good on the ground without some other ground fighting system). Regardless it’s a big step in the right direction.
      - stouset 5y ago
bpodgursky 5y ago
It's more complicated than that. They disbanded the entire department -- breaking the police union in the process, and then hired far _more_ (but somewhat lower-paid) police than before. The new, larger, but reformed department has done dramatically better than before. So there's really something for everyone -- breaking the union was important, _increasing_ funding was important, but also increased de-escalation training helped.
- oivey 5y ago
  I think that was Camden, not Newark.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  As another comment noted, that was Camden. There’s also more to that story - the city significantly stepped up its surveillance of public spaces (https://www.insider.com/inside-camden-new-jerseys-high-tech-police-control-center-2021-2 https://www.insider.com/inside-camden-new-jerseys-high-tech-...). Personally I think using technology to ensure public safety, with the right safeguards to prevent government abuses, is both acceptable and very possible. However, the anti policing activists are now against the Camden model - they initially held it up as evidence that defunding works but quickly changed opinion when more details came out (that funding simply shifted to the county level). You can find an example of arguments against Camden’s surveillance model at https://jacobinmag.com/2020/07/camden-new-jersey-police-reform-surveillance/ https://jacobinmag.com/2020/07/camden-new-jersey-police-refo...
throwaway1090 5y ago
In addition to education, as per the article, "They hired more Black and brown officers" ; "required any officer who uses force in any way to report it in detail, and for the supervisor to review it". Resulting in "The bad cops were suddenly outed."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

tomerico 5y ago

I disagree. The largest factors are likely to be culture (coming from leadership) and higher scrutiny (mentioned in the article as a requirement to report and investigate any use of force).

yaml-ops-guy 5y ago
Couldn’t possibly be a confluence of all the above? Not even in the tiniest degree?
- bluecatswim 5y ago
  "Largest factor" implies there are others as well.
  - yaml-ops-guy 5y ago
    Ah ok, perhaps I fixated on the curt "I disagree", for a moment too long.

zero_deg_kevin 5y ago

They’re now proof points that governments can reduce police fatalities by training their police to use more than guns. This hopefully makes it a little easier to sue a city into the ground for failure to adequately train its police force.

weswpg 5y ago
Importantly, such training requires more funding, not "defunding the police" as some propose.

odonnellryan 5y ago

NJ is decent. We had one small issue of police violence during the large BLM protests. Compared to NY...

misiti3780 5y ago

Sam Harris has a new, very interesting podcast with Rener Gracie about police training and how inadequate it is across the entire United States. Officers in California get one - 4 hour course every two years to learn how to subdue criminals, and of the 4 hours, only one is actually spent training, the other three are instruction. Rener Gracie is obviously famous for Brazilian jiu-jitsu but he also trains police on how to subdue criminals in a safe way. He has some interesting ideas about how to identify bad cops also. It was worth the listen. https://samharris.org/podcasts/246-police-training-police-misconduct/ https://samharris.org/podcasts/246-police-training-police-mi...

bitexploder 5y ago
My BJJ gym offers deep discount to police. This is a good thing. I’ve rolled with many police fresh to grappling and even with my limited skills they are very easy to subdue. No wonder they resort to weapons (lethal and less than lethal) so quickly. I have been training a few years now.
- nobodyandproud 5y ago
  Judo (the mother of bjj) is seeing a revival in police circles. It’s good to see grappling arts make a comeback, as there are plenty of non-lethal ways to make someone submit. Edit: For cases where the police officer already is in control.
  - bitexploder 5y ago
    I think American wrestling and or BJJ are much more practical than Judo as a martial art for police, but Judo is better than nothing. Judo is good for getting things to the ground, but the ground system of Judo is inadequate for many situations. (I’ve trained Judo and with many judokas, even advanced ones just aren’t very good on the ground without some other ground fighting system). Regardless it’s a big step in the right direction.
    - stouset 5y ago

bpodgursky 5y ago

It's more complicated than that. They disbanded the entire department -- breaking the police union in the process, and then hired far _more_ (but somewhat lower-paid) police than before. The new, larger, but reformed department has done dramatically better than before. So there's really something for everyone -- breaking the union was important, _increasing_ funding was important, but also increased de-escalation training helped.

oivey 5y ago
I think that was Camden, not Newark.
throwawaysea 5y ago
As another comment noted, that was Camden. There’s also more to that story - the city significantly stepped up its surveillance of public spaces (https://www.insider.com/inside-camden-new-jerseys-high-tech-police-control-center-2021-2 https://www.insider.com/inside-camden-new-jerseys-high-tech-...). Personally I think using technology to ensure public safety, with the right safeguards to prevent government abuses, is both acceptable and very possible. However, the anti policing activists are now against the Camden model - they initially held it up as evidence that defunding works but quickly changed opinion when more details came out (that funding simply shifted to the county level). You can find an example of arguments against Camden’s surveillance model at https://jacobinmag.com/2020/07/camden-new-jersey-police-reform-surveillance/ https://jacobinmag.com/2020/07/camden-new-jersey-police-refo...

throwaway1090 5y ago

In addition to education, as per the article, "They hired more Black and brown officers" ; "required any officer who uses force in any way to report it in detail, and for the supervisor to review it". Resulting in "The bad cops were suddenly outed."

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]