7 ms·

What I’m really curious to see is whether or not “electric” is the single killer feature it is often positioned as. Semi-autonomous driving and overall UX are

by kbos87 6y ago

What I’m really curious to see is whether or not “electric” is the single killer feature it is often positioned as. Semi-autonomous driving and overall UX are two places that Tesla is just so far ahead. I think other manufacturers will make progress, but they are likely to be slow. Electric is compelling but it’s only a small part of the overall value prop for a lot of buyers.

eropple 6y ago
n=1 of course, but to me Teslas aren't compelling until they 1) are a company I want to support, 2) building a vehicle I want, at 3) a price I want to pay. They fail #1 in a bunch of entertaining ways, they don't make a vehicle that satisfies #2 either in features/size or in the absence of misfeatures like the center console or the quasi-automated car crasher, and they'd have to take a significant haircut to satisfy #3. Your mileage, of course, may vary, but right now Hyundai's Kona EV is pretty close to that in terms of features/size/battery/price, for me. It's the car I'm considering as a moderate size upgrade over my current car (a super-compact hatchback). Being electric is a significant plus to me, enough that I'm considering the upgrade even though I don't strictly need it.
- ajross 6y ago
  > 1) are a company I want to support Really? I mean... as opposed to which automaker? Paraphrasing Matthew Yglesias[1]: Elon Musk is a raging narcissist asshole. But he built a three-quarter-trillion dollar company that makes electric cars and solar panels. That's... objectively pretty good for all of us, right? [1] I think. Actually I can't completely remember where I read this but it definitely sounds like him.
  - bpodgursky 6y ago
    He did. Something like "bad tweeter, but good for the world".
  - eropple 6y ago
    Maybe I was unclear. It's not (just) that Elon Musk is a dirtbag who sics his literally millions of stans on random people, though that's part of it; I don't think the way that he, personally, identifies and treats people is a reasonable way for a person with any measure of power to act. It's also that I don't want to support an automaker that makes cars as poorly as Tesla does. Even to this day Tesla rolls cars out to customers with stuff as simple as body panels totally hosed. And Tesla then gives buyers the run-around when they seek redress. That's when they aren't double-charging folks and making getting that redressed entirely too difficult, too. I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I said that I don't want to give them money. Tesla's shitty at making cars and shitty at customer service and I don't have a reason to buy from them either from the perspective of a purchaser or as somebody who tries to be at least reasonably ethical with the allocation of my money. As mentioned, my next car will likely be a Kona EV, where the body panels don't fall off and I have some trust in the warranty to actually be honored if I need something done.
- codezero 6y ago
  I agree with your points in general, the main reason I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, across models, years, features, they just have a similar look and it's boring. I wish they also offered a wide range of body modifications to add some flavor and individuality to the car.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    They really do look like the mid-range car in a video game. Not bad, but just a bit too American and safe for my eyes. I'm curious what a Cybertruck will actually end up looking like since they seem to have actually gone for risky with it.
    - kingsuper20 6y ago
      It's worth watching Sandy Munro's youtube channel to see what the justification for the Cybertruck body shape is. I changed my mind on them after watching it. One question I never see answered is how Teslas will deal with collision repair expense once the bugs are shaken out of the insurance and bodyshop system.
    - codezero 6y ago
      I love the cybertruck just because it's so absurd, but unfortunately I think the novelty will wear off the first time you see another cybertruck on the road.
  - kingsuper20 6y ago
    >I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, In my eyes, practically all new cars look the same. The badging is the main way to tell them apart. On the other hand, I can tell a 1967 from a 1968 Camaro (hint: the running lights/turn signals in the grill are round vs. a rounded rectangle on non RS cars). But they always did. If you come to it with a fresh eye, most cars of a given class/size in any era are pretty similar.
  - diggernet 6y ago
    As a non-Tesla fan, I think the S has very nice lines. The X and 3 are ugly. As you say, they basically look like the same car, and yet are misproportioned in various ways. My theory is they spent a lot of designer time carefully iterating and refining the S, then fired all the designers. Then for X and 3, simply distorted the S design to wrap around a different car and called it good.
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  Your reasoning, in my head, lead me to buy a Renault Zoe, and I love it. Electric cars cannot conjuring to be luxury items if we want to convert the fleet. This is something that Tesla gets distracted on and misses: the Model 3 should have cost 50% of what it does (with the compromises to get there). The 3 is like a slightly less ostentatious S, which is a total market miss for me
  - arcticfox 6y ago
    A total market miss for you, maybe, but it is a total market hit for the actual market as demonstrated in sales figures.
matmatmatmat 6y ago
It's obviously very personal, but for me, electric alone is a big plus. I find it more enjoyable to drive: No transmission shifting, really smooth acceleration, quieter, and that instant-on torque is pretty nice, too.
- kingsuper20 6y ago
  Another advantage in California (and likely other states) is that you get to avoid the enormous, rather useless, PITA called 'emissions inspection'.
tpmx 6y ago
I think what you're actually describing is the largely fan activist/toy (Yes, Tesla Autopilot is a toy) attitude that's common to a certain kind of Tesla owners. This is embarassing and needs to go so that responsible adults can buy EVs too.
- arcticfox 6y ago
  Calling Autopilot a toy seems quite exaggerated to me. I use Autopilot for ~80% of the miles I drive and I love it. I might think the same about Subaru or Cadillac or whatever if I had those, I'm not sure. But none of them are "toys".
  - tpmx 6y ago
    They way they market it is the reason it's a toy. This is not a novel argument in any way. In some circumstances it's a pretty good at L2 self driving. Until it isn't and it kills you if you don't pay attention.
rsynnott 6y ago
European BEV sales figures would indicate that Tesla's 'autopilot' is not a huge factor; of late Tesla has generally been 3rd or 4th (behind VW and one or both of Hyundai and Renault) in most markets.
chodeboy 6y ago
Is this comment meant to be ironic? The removal of physical buttons a main cluster for the driver and the lack of a HUD are all terrible UX decisions. People believe it is all part of the grand "autonomous driving" meme but the reality is that all cars that have been purchased today are going to be used up long before level 4 autonomy is passed through the legislation.
ajross 6y ago
Yeah. I literally just pulled the trigger and am waiting on delivery of a Model Y. The other vendors are at least playing in the same ballpark now. This car, and the Ford Mach-E (I refuse to call a 4-door crossover a "mustang") are both... very reasonable and justifiable purchases. Same price range. Similar (or at least close to) travel range. Similar performance. But they don't have a supercharger network. They won't have anything like Tesla's autopilot over the life of these units. The software glitz Tesla's app integration brings to the table isn't there, even if the fit and finish is probably better. It's great to see the traditional automakers getting close finally (almost a DECADE after the Model S shipped!), but... they aren't there yet. Unless you're in love with something very specific about these particular cars, Tesla remains the clear default choice.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by kbos87 6y ago

eropple 6y ago

n=1 of course, but to me Teslas aren't compelling until they 1) are a company I want to support, 2) building a vehicle I want, at 3) a price I want to pay. They fail #1 in a bunch of entertaining ways, they don't make a vehicle that satisfies #2 either in features/size or in the absence of misfeatures like the center console or the quasi-automated car crasher, and they'd have to take a significant haircut to satisfy #3. Your mileage, of course, may vary, but right now Hyundai's Kona EV is pretty close to that in terms of features/size/battery/price, for me. It's the car I'm considering as a moderate size upgrade over my current car (a super-compact hatchback). Being electric is a significant plus to me, enough that I'm considering the upgrade even though I don't strictly need it.

ajross 6y ago
> 1) are a company I want to support Really? I mean... as opposed to which automaker? Paraphrasing Matthew Yglesias[1]: Elon Musk is a raging narcissist asshole. But he built a three-quarter-trillion dollar company that makes electric cars and solar panels. That's... objectively pretty good for all of us, right? [1] I think. Actually I can't completely remember where I read this but it definitely sounds like him.
- bpodgursky 6y ago
  He did. Something like "bad tweeter, but good for the world".
- eropple 6y ago
  Maybe I was unclear. It's not (just) that Elon Musk is a dirtbag who sics his literally millions of stans on random people, though that's part of it; I don't think the way that he, personally, identifies and treats people is a reasonable way for a person with any measure of power to act. It's also that I don't want to support an automaker that makes cars as poorly as Tesla does. Even to this day Tesla rolls cars out to customers with stuff as simple as body panels totally hosed. And Tesla then gives buyers the run-around when they seek redress. That's when they aren't double-charging folks and making getting that redressed entirely too difficult, too. I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I said that I don't want to give them money. Tesla's shitty at making cars and shitty at customer service and I don't have a reason to buy from them either from the perspective of a purchaser or as somebody who tries to be at least reasonably ethical with the allocation of my money. As mentioned, my next car will likely be a Kona EV, where the body panels don't fall off and I have some trust in the warranty to actually be honored if I need something done.
codezero 6y ago
I agree with your points in general, the main reason I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, across models, years, features, they just have a similar look and it's boring. I wish they also offered a wide range of body modifications to add some flavor and individuality to the car.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  They really do look like the mid-range car in a video game. Not bad, but just a bit too American and safe for my eyes. I'm curious what a Cybertruck will actually end up looking like since they seem to have actually gone for risky with it.
  - kingsuper20 6y ago
    It's worth watching Sandy Munro's youtube channel to see what the justification for the Cybertruck body shape is. I changed my mind on them after watching it. One question I never see answered is how Teslas will deal with collision repair expense once the bugs are shaken out of the insurance and bodyshop system.
  - codezero 6y ago
    I love the cybertruck just because it's so absurd, but unfortunately I think the novelty will wear off the first time you see another cybertruck on the road.
- kingsuper20 6y ago
  >I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, In my eyes, practically all new cars look the same. The badging is the main way to tell them apart. On the other hand, I can tell a 1967 from a 1968 Camaro (hint: the running lights/turn signals in the grill are round vs. a rounded rectangle on non RS cars). But they always did. If you come to it with a fresh eye, most cars of a given class/size in any era are pretty similar.
- diggernet 6y ago
  As a non-Tesla fan, I think the S has very nice lines. The X and 3 are ugly. As you say, they basically look like the same car, and yet are misproportioned in various ways. My theory is they spent a lot of designer time carefully iterating and refining the S, then fired all the designers. Then for X and 3, simply distorted the S design to wrap around a different car and called it good.
jeffrallen 6y ago
Your reasoning, in my head, lead me to buy a Renault Zoe, and I love it. Electric cars cannot conjuring to be luxury items if we want to convert the fleet. This is something that Tesla gets distracted on and misses: the Model 3 should have cost 50% of what it does (with the compromises to get there). The 3 is like a slightly less ostentatious S, which is a total market miss for me
- arcticfox 6y ago
  A total market miss for you, maybe, but it is a total market hit for the actual market as demonstrated in sales figures.

matmatmatmat 6y ago

It's obviously very personal, but for me, electric alone is a big plus. I find it more enjoyable to drive: No transmission shifting, really smooth acceleration, quieter, and that instant-on torque is pretty nice, too.

kingsuper20 6y ago
Another advantage in California (and likely other states) is that you get to avoid the enormous, rather useless, PITA called 'emissions inspection'.

tpmx 6y ago

I think what you're actually describing is the largely fan activist/toy (Yes, Tesla Autopilot is a toy) attitude that's common to a certain kind of Tesla owners. This is embarassing and needs to go so that responsible adults can buy EVs too.

arcticfox 6y ago
Calling Autopilot a toy seems quite exaggerated to me. I use Autopilot for ~80% of the miles I drive and I love it. I might think the same about Subaru or Cadillac or whatever if I had those, I'm not sure. But none of them are "toys".
- tpmx 6y ago
  They way they market it is the reason it's a toy. This is not a novel argument in any way. In some circumstances it's a pretty good at L2 self driving. Until it isn't and it kills you if you don't pay attention.

rsynnott 6y ago

European BEV sales figures would indicate that Tesla's 'autopilot' is not a huge factor; of late Tesla has generally been 3rd or 4th (behind VW and one or both of Hyundai and Renault) in most markets.

chodeboy 6y ago

Is this comment meant to be ironic? The removal of physical buttons a main cluster for the driver and the lack of a HUD are all terrible UX decisions. People believe it is all part of the grand "autonomous driving" meme but the reality is that all cars that have been purchased today are going to be used up long before level 4 autonomy is passed through the legislation.

ajross 6y ago

Yeah. I literally just pulled the trigger and am waiting on delivery of a Model Y. The other vendors are at least playing in the same ballpark now. This car, and the Ford Mach-E (I refuse to call a 4-door crossover a "mustang") are both... very reasonable and justifiable purchases. Same price range. Similar (or at least close to) travel range. Similar performance. But they don't have a supercharger network. They won't have anything like Tesla's autopilot over the life of these units. The software glitz Tesla's app integration brings to the table isn't there, even if the fit and finish is probably better. It's great to see the traditional automakers getting close finally (almost a DECADE after the Model S shipped!), but... they aren't there yet. Unless you're in love with something very specific about these particular cars, Tesla remains the clear default choice.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]