6 ms·

Most comments I've seen on this and other related articles on HN are too focused on the high-end chips doing fancy stuff. There are not only supply constraints

Most comments I've seen on this and other related articles on HN are too focused on the high-end chips doing fancy stuff. There are not only supply constraints on these sorts of high-compute chips, but also big shortages on practically all ICs in general. I'm a hardware engineer for a medical device company, and we've been dealing with supply constraints not only with our MCUs but other ICs like high-side power switches, LDOs, memory, and more. It's tough when we're low volume (a few thousand a year) and the huge automakers and other huge consumer electronics giants are gobbling up all the parts.

_huayra_ 5y ago
Do medical devices and auto tech use similar components? I understand there's a lot in common, but I would think that safety constraints for one domain would cause it to not overlap with the other. Forgive my ignorance on this, as I am but a humble software engineer who is forever in amazement at how all ICs are basically flattened rocks we shoot lightning through to make it do math real dang quick...
- _pmf_ 5y ago
  Sometimes, automotive components are just better QA'd (validated) regular components.
  - Exmoor 5y ago
    One would assume (or hope) that medical device components are also QA'd to at least the standard of automotive components.
    - jononor 5y ago
      One of the most common additional requirements on automotive parts is extended range, often below -20 C and above 70 C. That is often not relevant for medical products which operate only inside, near room temperatures.
      - cronix 5y ago
        And then there's also the vibration issue. I don't think most medical devices need to stand up to continuous vibrations like you'd have in an auto engine. If they are not soldered well, eventually things can loosen up and fall off, or minimally just break contact. I think the car industry is closer to the aero/space industry than medical industry.
        ehnto 5y ago
        It took 20 years but the circuitboard on my Nissan's dash had deteriorated enough to warrant resoldering. Now that is done, it is as good as new. It's remarkable how dash clusters look inside, absolutely pristine behind the plastic lens in spite of their environment.
        t0mas88 5y ago
        Aero has a few unique issues that make car parts unusable. One is the lower bound of the temperature range, it's not unusual to see -55 celcius for an aircraft. And pressure, air is really thin at the 41,000ft most large aircraft are certified for.
      - treeman79 5y ago
        Walked into an ice rink. They measured kids temperature. 107 degrees. After much confusion as to why the healthy looking child, and that no I wasn’t rushing her to the ER, they finally figured out that for head scanners don’t work right at 20 degrees. The solution of course was to have someone sit on it when not in use. A week later no more temperature scans.
        gkop 5y ago
        Would you kindly confirm your story involves an outdoor rink? (My mind conjures a miserably cold indoor rink and I’m shuddering; the story as told is unnecessarily confusing because the ice rink detail is immaterial, the important detail is using the device outdoors in cold weather)
        5y ago
    - wishysgb 5y ago
      well they are completely different standards. you wouldn't expect a medical device inside a human body to operate at 130C
- blihp 5y ago
  Similar but not the same. There is an insane variety of nearly identical MCUs, for example. For an otherwise identical part, you can often get it in half a dozen or more packages. (i.e. the chip has different physical form factors in terms of how it attaches to the PCB, pin type and spacing etc... but the actual die inside is the same) Then there are subtle variants for a given MCU (differing types/amounts/speeds of RAM/Flash/interfaces etc.) The matrix of variants quickly gets out of hand. It's probably easily 10-50x (depending on the part) the number of variants Intel/AMD come out with each year. The autos also typically use parts with an extended temperature range.
  - steve_b 5y ago
    For the subtle variants, I believe it's how they price discriminate. It's all the same part, but they use fuses to disable various peripherals. Way easier to do that than to fabricate a whole bunch of different chips.
    - blihp 5y ago
      Most likely when it's moderate/major features. Sometimes it can be as simple as a case of packaging (i.e. fewer pins so they can't bring everything out.) I've always assumed that some of the packaging options were driven by large customers who wanted something just a bit different for whatever reason. (PCB space, power consumption, just to be difficult... who knows)
- bluesquared 5y ago
  Often yes. "Medical devices" covers a large array of products from in-vitro/small implantable to things similar to laboratory equipment (think patient monitoring) or industrial (MRI and the like, autoclaves, etc). "Safety" is not really achieved on a per-component basis, but as a sum of the parts. As for other comments in this thread, depending on your device, it can see a great deal of thermal stress (steam autoclaves) or vibration (MRI), and not all components in autos are experiencing the total vibrations from internal combustion engines. I've typically designed in components with extended temperature ranges, most commonly 85C+ or even 125C. This increases the reliability and extends the life of your product. "Automotive-grade" typically means extra lot testing, and some parameters may vary in the datasheet due to the way the parts were validated by the manufacturer, even though they're technically the same part. For instance, I am using a Texas Instruments part that became nearly impossible to source. I had the automotive version in my bill of materials because at time of the design, it was the only version out. An alternative made by TI looked like a good fit, but a few key parameters in the datasheet didn't quite line up. It was because the automotive was tested at like 13.8V input whereas the newer "industrial" part was tested with 24V and slightly different loads. Same exact component, tested slightly differently.
- digikata 5y ago
  In addition to the other good comments regarding medical/automotive overlap, is that often those chip lines have long lifecycle commitments built into them - ie. we promise to make this set of parts for at least 10 years. For both both of those customer areas, not having to redesign your boards and recertify devices on an external timeline is of value.
turbinerneiter 5y ago
We recently tried to get 150pc of the same uC that's on the teensy 3.6 - no chance. Luckily we weren't bound to the exact model and could substitute for a pin compatible model with different flash sizes and without a certain feature. Then I had to design a board because a simple 5 to 12 V boost converter from TI became unobtainium. We are a prototype shop and do quantities of 10 and less most of the time.
- WanderPanda 5y ago
  It's sad seeing the price inelasticity causing a decreasing productivity in this way. I hope this is a lesson for all future considerations combining JIT with price inelastic goods
- sircastor 5y ago
  I saw Paul S (who makes the Teensy) posted recently that he’s having trouble sourcing some components. I’m projecting that a hobby project I make is going to be delayed by not being able to get the LDO I worked into the design. I’m contemplating switching out the component for something a little more common. (AP2112 for an LM1117 for anyone who’s interested)
cossray 5y ago
Since January of this year, I have been waiting for a certain MCU (STM32F042K6T6) to be available but still no luck. I get the bigger picture now: there's a shortage at the source. I have to move fast and secure a stock of the rest of the ICs, otherwise this supply-chain issue can be disastrous to small hardware companies.
- cushychicken 5y ago
  I'm convinced that, if in-person IEEE meetups were still a thing right now, you could drop a tray of ST Micro chips in the middle of the meeting and watch it devolve into a fistfight in seconds. The chip shortage right now is rough.
  - joezydeco 5y ago
    We need thousands, and we need them in humidity-sealed trays. A handful thrown on a table isn't enough.
    - teclordphrack2 5y ago
      +1 for having to be sealed. We have a handful of companies wanting to sell us needed chips but they are odds and ends, not always packaged. Were always suspect.
      - joezydeco 5y ago
        You also can't expose parts to ambient humidity for very long if you intend to put them through a reflow solder process. Bad things happen.
        Kliment 5y ago
        Sure you can, you just need to low-temp bake them before reflow to get the moisture back out.
dv_dt 5y ago
I think thats two factors. One, the analog chip manufacturers that deal with power ICs have been consolidating, and two the power outages in Texas hit a number of foundries that tend to focus on embedded parts.
- Kliment 5y ago
  It's more than that. I explained this last time someone asked, here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26842924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26842924
zafka 5y ago
Hi, My email is in profile. Also in Med devices, and always looking to talk to others in the field.
Kliment 5y ago
Hey, if you need help finding replacements I might be able to help - I've literally been doing mostly this for customers since January. It's absolute bullshit and I've never seen this before in all my time in this industry. email in my profile.
baybal2 5y ago
Automakers are far from giant, and over the time their BOMs actually shrank for most mainstream, high volume cars. Corollas are remarkable how "dumb" they are despite seemed electronic sophistication. Automotive IC market aside from car only parts looks rather random. You may have $100 mil spec® parts sitting besides 10¢ parts, and doin essentially the same due to regulatory, and market peculiarities.
waiseristy 5y ago
It's funny you mention this, a lot of the stress in Automotive right now is about these random IC's as well. CAN transceivers, and other dumb supporting HW is in very short supply. Less so the high-end silicon
steve_gh 5y ago
We are developing IoT sensor systems for the Utility sector. We are being quoted 22-52 week lead times for pilot quantities (100s) of Arm M0 chipsets.
catherd 5y ago
For a run we're doing of 800 boards that use 8 commodity ICs, 3 of those ICs are having significant supply issues right now. Just spent a fun 2 days soldering a bunch of 0.1mm wires to boards and adding test sockets so we can sort out which supplier to pay 4X the previous price to vs which ones sent bogus or old oxidized stock.

_huayra_ 5y ago

Do medical devices and auto tech use similar components? I understand there's a lot in common, but I would think that safety constraints for one domain would cause it to not overlap with the other. Forgive my ignorance on this, as I am but a humble software engineer who is forever in amazement at how all ICs are basically flattened rocks we shoot lightning through to make it do math real dang quick...

_pmf_ 5y ago
Sometimes, automotive components are just better QA'd (validated) regular components.
- Exmoor 5y ago
  One would assume (or hope) that medical device components are also QA'd to at least the standard of automotive components.
  - jononor 5y ago
    One of the most common additional requirements on automotive parts is extended range, often below -20 C and above 70 C. That is often not relevant for medical products which operate only inside, near room temperatures.
    - cronix 5y ago
      And then there's also the vibration issue. I don't think most medical devices need to stand up to continuous vibrations like you'd have in an auto engine. If they are not soldered well, eventually things can loosen up and fall off, or minimally just break contact. I think the car industry is closer to the aero/space industry than medical industry.
      - ehnto 5y ago
        It took 20 years but the circuitboard on my Nissan's dash had deteriorated enough to warrant resoldering. Now that is done, it is as good as new. It's remarkable how dash clusters look inside, absolutely pristine behind the plastic lens in spite of their environment.
      - t0mas88 5y ago
        Aero has a few unique issues that make car parts unusable. One is the lower bound of the temperature range, it's not unusual to see -55 celcius for an aircraft. And pressure, air is really thin at the 41,000ft most large aircraft are certified for.
    - treeman79 5y ago
      Walked into an ice rink. They measured kids temperature. 107 degrees. After much confusion as to why the healthy looking child, and that no I wasn’t rushing her to the ER, they finally figured out that for head scanners don’t work right at 20 degrees. The solution of course was to have someone sit on it when not in use. A week later no more temperature scans.
      - gkop 5y ago
        Would you kindly confirm your story involves an outdoor rink? (My mind conjures a miserably cold indoor rink and I’m shuddering; the story as told is unnecessarily confusing because the ice rink detail is immaterial, the important detail is using the device outdoors in cold weather)
        5y ago
  - wishysgb 5y ago
    well they are completely different standards. you wouldn't expect a medical device inside a human body to operate at 130C
blihp 5y ago
Similar but not the same. There is an insane variety of nearly identical MCUs, for example. For an otherwise identical part, you can often get it in half a dozen or more packages. (i.e. the chip has different physical form factors in terms of how it attaches to the PCB, pin type and spacing etc... but the actual die inside is the same) Then there are subtle variants for a given MCU (differing types/amounts/speeds of RAM/Flash/interfaces etc.) The matrix of variants quickly gets out of hand. It's probably easily 10-50x (depending on the part) the number of variants Intel/AMD come out with each year. The autos also typically use parts with an extended temperature range.
- steve_b 5y ago
  For the subtle variants, I believe it's how they price discriminate. It's all the same part, but they use fuses to disable various peripherals. Way easier to do that than to fabricate a whole bunch of different chips.
  - blihp 5y ago
    Most likely when it's moderate/major features. Sometimes it can be as simple as a case of packaging (i.e. fewer pins so they can't bring everything out.) I've always assumed that some of the packaging options were driven by large customers who wanted something just a bit different for whatever reason. (PCB space, power consumption, just to be difficult... who knows)
bluesquared 5y ago
Often yes. "Medical devices" covers a large array of products from in-vitro/small implantable to things similar to laboratory equipment (think patient monitoring) or industrial (MRI and the like, autoclaves, etc). "Safety" is not really achieved on a per-component basis, but as a sum of the parts. As for other comments in this thread, depending on your device, it can see a great deal of thermal stress (steam autoclaves) or vibration (MRI), and not all components in autos are experiencing the total vibrations from internal combustion engines. I've typically designed in components with extended temperature ranges, most commonly 85C+ or even 125C. This increases the reliability and extends the life of your product. "Automotive-grade" typically means extra lot testing, and some parameters may vary in the datasheet due to the way the parts were validated by the manufacturer, even though they're technically the same part. For instance, I am using a Texas Instruments part that became nearly impossible to source. I had the automotive version in my bill of materials because at time of the design, it was the only version out. An alternative made by TI looked like a good fit, but a few key parameters in the datasheet didn't quite line up. It was because the automotive was tested at like 13.8V input whereas the newer "industrial" part was tested with 24V and slightly different loads. Same exact component, tested slightly differently.
digikata 5y ago
In addition to the other good comments regarding medical/automotive overlap, is that often those chip lines have long lifecycle commitments built into them - ie. we promise to make this set of parts for at least 10 years. For both both of those customer areas, not having to redesign your boards and recertify devices on an external timeline is of value.

turbinerneiter 5y ago

We recently tried to get 150pc of the same uC that's on the teensy 3.6 - no chance. Luckily we weren't bound to the exact model and could substitute for a pin compatible model with different flash sizes and without a certain feature. Then I had to design a board because a simple 5 to 12 V boost converter from TI became unobtainium. We are a prototype shop and do quantities of 10 and less most of the time.

WanderPanda 5y ago
It's sad seeing the price inelasticity causing a decreasing productivity in this way. I hope this is a lesson for all future considerations combining JIT with price inelastic goods
sircastor 5y ago
I saw Paul S (who makes the Teensy) posted recently that he’s having trouble sourcing some components. I’m projecting that a hobby project I make is going to be delayed by not being able to get the LDO I worked into the design. I’m contemplating switching out the component for something a little more common. (AP2112 for an LM1117 for anyone who’s interested)

cossray 5y ago

Since January of this year, I have been waiting for a certain MCU (STM32F042K6T6) to be available but still no luck. I get the bigger picture now: there's a shortage at the source. I have to move fast and secure a stock of the rest of the ICs, otherwise this supply-chain issue can be disastrous to small hardware companies.

cushychicken 5y ago
I'm convinced that, if in-person IEEE meetups were still a thing right now, you could drop a tray of ST Micro chips in the middle of the meeting and watch it devolve into a fistfight in seconds. The chip shortage right now is rough.
- joezydeco 5y ago
  We need thousands, and we need them in humidity-sealed trays. A handful thrown on a table isn't enough.
  - teclordphrack2 5y ago
    +1 for having to be sealed. We have a handful of companies wanting to sell us needed chips but they are odds and ends, not always packaged. Were always suspect.
    - joezydeco 5y ago
      You also can't expose parts to ambient humidity for very long if you intend to put them through a reflow solder process. Bad things happen.
      - Kliment 5y ago
        Sure you can, you just need to low-temp bake them before reflow to get the moisture back out.

dv_dt 5y ago

I think thats two factors. One, the analog chip manufacturers that deal with power ICs have been consolidating, and two the power outages in Texas hit a number of foundries that tend to focus on embedded parts.

Kliment 5y ago
It's more than that. I explained this last time someone asked, here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26842924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26842924

zafka 5y ago

Hi, My email is in profile. Also in Med devices, and always looking to talk to others in the field.

Kliment 5y ago

Hey, if you need help finding replacements I might be able to help - I've literally been doing mostly this for customers since January. It's absolute bullshit and I've never seen this before in all my time in this industry. email in my profile.

baybal2 5y ago

Automakers are far from giant, and over the time their BOMs actually shrank for most mainstream, high volume cars. Corollas are remarkable how "dumb" they are despite seemed electronic sophistication. Automotive IC market aside from car only parts looks rather random. You may have $100 mil spec® parts sitting besides 10¢ parts, and doin essentially the same due to regulatory, and market peculiarities.

waiseristy 5y ago

It's funny you mention this, a lot of the stress in Automotive right now is about these random IC's as well. CAN transceivers, and other dumb supporting HW is in very short supply. Less so the high-end silicon

steve_gh 5y ago

We are developing IoT sensor systems for the Utility sector. We are being quoted 22-52 week lead times for pilot quantities (100s) of Arm M0 chipsets.

catherd 5y ago

For a run we're doing of 800 boards that use 8 commodity ICs, 3 of those ICs are having significant supply issues right now. Just spent a fun 2 days soldering a bunch of 0.1mm wires to boards and adding test sockets so we can sort out which supplier to pay 4X the previous price to vs which ones sent bogus or old oxidized stock.