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I feel like the developer/founder should have a higher salary. $58k a year for running a site with millions of games per day.. deserves more. Is it because they

I feel like the developer/founder should have a higher salary. $58k a year for running a site with millions of games per day.. deserves more. Is it because they don't get enough donations? Or saving the extra money for growth/buffer? (edit: originally posted this as a top level comment but felt it fit better here) Edit2: just checked. I've spent 11 whole days playing chess there (and not sure if that only counts games and not tactics etc). Made my first donation now.

de6u99er 6y ago
I recall an AMA on Reddit, where the founder said he is perfectly fune with his salary as long as LiChess stays free and he can continue doing what he loves.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  I think the founder should have "fuck you" money, not just a reasonable salary.
  - hobofan 6y ago
    Well it seems like the founder doesn't want more money. Not everyone needs or wants "fuck you" money, and with that kind of salary you can afford a decent life in (most of) France.
    - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
      This is assuming that this stream of income doesn't ever dry up. I personally think that the founder should have enough money to never worry about money, or at least have a big buffer. If at some point in the future for whatever reason Lichess gets less donations, he could be screwed. On the other hand if he had a bit of a warchest he either has runway to increase revenue or to find another source of income.
      - indigochill 6y ago
        Then really Lichess should have FU money. This both secures his income as long as he continues working on it, then lets him hire a replacement whenever he decides to retire.
        ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        Sure, it's up the founder of course. I think the they've created enough value to deserve that money for themselves and to use in any way they see fit though. Maybe that would be putting it back into Lichess when they retire or maybe after 10 years they decide they want to work on something else and they live off that money to do so.
      - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
        >If at some point in the future for whatever reason Lichess gets less donations, he could be screwed. No doubt they would get a job like the rest of us. The problem with your proposition is it can never be satisfied, you will never have enough.
        ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        > No doubt they would get a job like the rest of us "I personally think that the founder should have enough money to never worry about money, or at least have a big buffer" > The problem with your proposition is it can never be satisfied, you will never have enough Where did you get this idea from? If you control your expenses (Like it sounds like the founder does) then the "never having enough" problem doesn't exist. At that point more money just means a larger buffer.
  - acjacobson 6y ago
    I would argue he already does. The entire point of "fuck you" money is that you are no longer beholden to someone else - it is not so much defined by the overall amount, but by the freedom it can buy you. He gets to work on what he loves doing every day doing it exactly the way he wants.
    - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
      My definition of FU money is that you have enough money to be secure no matter what. I think he would still rely on the month to month or year to year income rather than being completely secure.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - auggierose 6y ago
        Nobody is completely secure.
        hinkley 6y ago
        I’m currently trying to figure out if I wanted to work 20 hours a month post-retirement, what sort of work that would look like. There are a handful of nature and nurture reasons that tell me that full retirement would likely be very bad for my health. And of course partial retirement I could start a little sooner.
      - not1ofU 6y ago
        The joy of FU money https://thedeepdish.org/fuck-you-money/ https://thedeepdish.org/fuck-you-money/
  - room271 6y ago
    You are projecting your own desires onto the founder (which is fine, but worth thinking about why they don't want the same thing as you). It seems clear that they are happy with their salary/work. For some people, more money beyond this is not a good thing.
    - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
      I'm not. It's not about having more money to spend, but having enough to be permanently secure. The founder could have FU money, still draw a ~50k/yr salary and keep their spending at the same level. The only difference is that if circumstances change the founder is still secure instead.
      - hinkley 6y ago
        If I could wave a wand and give you enough money to quit tomorrow, what would you do with yourself? What if your best friend were already doing his thing? Would you feel the urge to send me to talk to him, or is he good?
        ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        I don't know what you second line means, but I would continue working. Possibly reduced hours, but still working.
        hinkley 6y ago
        If you’re already doing the thing you would do if you could do anything, do you still feel the need for “enough money” to walk out and go do it. I think, and some other posters seem to agree, that the answer is a qualified no.
        ipaddr 6y ago
        If you gave me enough money I would quit. Can you include some seed money for my new startup?
  - seszett 6y ago
    The man describes himself as a pastafarian antifascist and lichess as a hippie communist chess server. I don't think he has the same opinion on money as you do.
- fionnohGoDeo 6y ago
  Here's the AMA: https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lichess_ask_me_anything/ https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lic... And the answer in question: https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lichess_ask_me_anything/gu9azgf/ https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lic... "That's my salary before income taxes. I think it's about right. Could I make more by selling my skills to the highest bidder? Probably. Would I be happier? Hell no. The way I see it, that's a lot money for a job I can do at my own rhythm from the comfort of my home. And instead of bosses or clients, I work for an awesome community."
  - de6u99er 6y ago
    Thanks!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
indigochill 6y ago
>I feel like the developer/founder should have a higher salary. This is probably the root of most of tech's angst: people thinking they're entitled to get rich just because they made /run something. If you can live comfortably doing something as rewarding as making something like Lichess, what more can you really want? People are talking about FU money/financial independence, which I agree is nice, but you can totally get there on $58k/year by living below your means and investing. The reason I say it leads to angst is when you expect more than a comfortable salary, you're imposing a higher financial burden on the overall system than necessary, which can sometimes work in the short term, but in the long term introduces drag on development/stability because those extra thousands you're personally socking away aren't going towards, say, getting a contractor to address little issues or going into the rainy day fund.
- matsemann 6y ago
  I'm not talking about entitlement. But this guy is really good at multiple things. SRE, frontend, backend, project management etc. He could probably earn twice as much working a normal job, and even more for the right company. He don't want to. And maybe don't want/need to earn more. And that is completely fine. But his impact is huuuge. I'd wish more people did like him. But I don't think many will, because those skilled enough to make something similar would rather work for a higher salary. So it's more a sigh from me, that I'd wish more people would be able to sustain making and giving away something great like this, without having to sacrifice money. Why should optimizing ad clicks give you millions, but making this only thousands? You know, in the same way there often are discussions here about making open source income viable. It would be better for everyone if these unsung heroes got more than just praise. Then others would follow suit.
  - agustif 6y ago
    If he keeps 100% of ownership, that 58k can become 500k in a few years?
    - jononor 6y ago
      What do you mean by ownership? Lichess is a non-profit association, not a limited company owned by the developer.
alexgmcm 6y ago
In France that's a reasonable salary for an experienced engineer. I agree it's low for someone running the whole show, but then he is doing it as a non-profit. Tech salaries in the US are really high compared to RoW, even once CoL is taken into account.
iSnow 6y ago
Gross avg. wage in France is $42700[1] if calculated with 12 months and no variable benefits. Mean would be more interesting, but I don't seem to easily find it. It might sound weirdly low for someone in IT in the USA, but first, not everyone commands FAANG sales, and second, wages in the EU are comparatively low. With some seniority, you can rise to $100k relatively easily, but you have to sell your soul to either some consulting company or old Fortune-500 industries. So could be the dev takes an above-avg wage which would be around junior to semi experienced level developer and just does what they want to do: build a chess community. EDIT: I don't fully understand the tax part, but if the nonprofit also pays his taxes and he goes out with $54k net, he's doing very, very well for an EU country. I've just reached that level give or take and I have lots of seniority in a really profitable old economy country. If I would be gunning higher, I'd have to do consulting or go the people management track. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Gross_average_monthly_salaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
- FartyMcFarter 6y ago
  FAANG salaries in the EU / UK can be nearly as high as in the US though, which in some locations does drive up the compensation for all SWEs.
  - MauranKilom 6y ago
    Based on StackOverflow dev survey, EU salaries are roughly 60% of what you get in the US. You'll be hard-pressed to find equivalent positions paying the same in both regions.
    - cbg0 6y ago
      Are those 1:1 comparisons? I know typically in the US salaries advertised are not exactly take-home pay, but before tax amounts, and is some places in Europe salaries are advertised as take-home pay.
      - MauranKilom 6y ago

de6u99er 6y ago

I recall an AMA on Reddit, where the founder said he is perfectly fune with his salary as long as LiChess stays free and he can continue doing what he loves.

ZephyrBlu 6y ago
I think the founder should have "fuck you" money, not just a reasonable salary.
- hobofan 6y ago
  Well it seems like the founder doesn't want more money. Not everyone needs or wants "fuck you" money, and with that kind of salary you can afford a decent life in (most of) France.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    This is assuming that this stream of income doesn't ever dry up. I personally think that the founder should have enough money to never worry about money, or at least have a big buffer. If at some point in the future for whatever reason Lichess gets less donations, he could be screwed. On the other hand if he had a bit of a warchest he either has runway to increase revenue or to find another source of income.
    - indigochill 6y ago
      Then really Lichess should have FU money. This both secures his income as long as he continues working on it, then lets him hire a replacement whenever he decides to retire.
      - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        Sure, it's up the founder of course. I think the they've created enough value to deserve that money for themselves and to use in any way they see fit though. Maybe that would be putting it back into Lichess when they retire or maybe after 10 years they decide they want to work on something else and they live off that money to do so.
    - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      >If at some point in the future for whatever reason Lichess gets less donations, he could be screwed. No doubt they would get a job like the rest of us. The problem with your proposition is it can never be satisfied, you will never have enough.
      - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        > No doubt they would get a job like the rest of us "I personally think that the founder should have enough money to never worry about money, or at least have a big buffer" > The problem with your proposition is it can never be satisfied, you will never have enough Where did you get this idea from? If you control your expenses (Like it sounds like the founder does) then the "never having enough" problem doesn't exist. At that point more money just means a larger buffer.
- acjacobson 6y ago
  I would argue he already does. The entire point of "fuck you" money is that you are no longer beholden to someone else - it is not so much defined by the overall amount, but by the freedom it can buy you. He gets to work on what he loves doing every day doing it exactly the way he wants.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    My definition of FU money is that you have enough money to be secure no matter what. I think he would still rely on the month to month or year to year income rather than being completely secure.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - auggierose 6y ago
      Nobody is completely secure.
      - hinkley 6y ago
        I’m currently trying to figure out if I wanted to work 20 hours a month post-retirement, what sort of work that would look like. There are a handful of nature and nurture reasons that tell me that full retirement would likely be very bad for my health. And of course partial retirement I could start a little sooner.
    - not1ofU 6y ago
      The joy of FU money https://thedeepdish.org/fuck-you-money/ https://thedeepdish.org/fuck-you-money/
- room271 6y ago
  You are projecting your own desires onto the founder (which is fine, but worth thinking about why they don't want the same thing as you). It seems clear that they are happy with their salary/work. For some people, more money beyond this is not a good thing.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    I'm not. It's not about having more money to spend, but having enough to be permanently secure. The founder could have FU money, still draw a ~50k/yr salary and keep their spending at the same level. The only difference is that if circumstances change the founder is still secure instead.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      If I could wave a wand and give you enough money to quit tomorrow, what would you do with yourself? What if your best friend were already doing his thing? Would you feel the urge to send me to talk to him, or is he good?
      - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        I don't know what you second line means, but I would continue working. Possibly reduced hours, but still working.
        hinkley 6y ago
        If you’re already doing the thing you would do if you could do anything, do you still feel the need for “enough money” to walk out and go do it. I think, and some other posters seem to agree, that the answer is a qualified no.
      - ipaddr 6y ago
        If you gave me enough money I would quit. Can you include some seed money for my new startup?
- seszett 6y ago
  The man describes himself as a pastafarian antifascist and lichess as a hippie communist chess server. I don't think he has the same opinion on money as you do.
fionnohGoDeo 6y ago
Here's the AMA: https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lichess_ask_me_anything/ https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lic... And the answer in question: https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lichess_ask_me_anything/gu9azgf/ https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/mpasyl/i_started_lic... "That's my salary before income taxes. I think it's about right. Could I make more by selling my skills to the highest bidder? Probably. Would I be happier? Hell no. The way I see it, that's a lot money for a job I can do at my own rhythm from the comfort of my home. And instead of bosses or clients, I work for an awesome community."
- de6u99er 6y ago
  Thanks!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

indigochill 6y ago

>I feel like the developer/founder should have a higher salary. This is probably the root of most of tech's angst: people thinking they're entitled to get rich just because they made /run something. If you can live comfortably doing something as rewarding as making something like Lichess, what more can you really want? People are talking about FU money/financial independence, which I agree is nice, but you can totally get there on $58k/year by living below your means and investing. The reason I say it leads to angst is when you expect more than a comfortable salary, you're imposing a higher financial burden on the overall system than necessary, which can sometimes work in the short term, but in the long term introduces drag on development/stability because those extra thousands you're personally socking away aren't going towards, say, getting a contractor to address little issues or going into the rainy day fund.

matsemann 6y ago
I'm not talking about entitlement. But this guy is really good at multiple things. SRE, frontend, backend, project management etc. He could probably earn twice as much working a normal job, and even more for the right company. He don't want to. And maybe don't want/need to earn more. And that is completely fine. But his impact is huuuge. I'd wish more people did like him. But I don't think many will, because those skilled enough to make something similar would rather work for a higher salary. So it's more a sigh from me, that I'd wish more people would be able to sustain making and giving away something great like this, without having to sacrifice money. Why should optimizing ad clicks give you millions, but making this only thousands? You know, in the same way there often are discussions here about making open source income viable. It would be better for everyone if these unsung heroes got more than just praise. Then others would follow suit.
- agustif 6y ago
  If he keeps 100% of ownership, that 58k can become 500k in a few years?
  - jononor 6y ago
    What do you mean by ownership? Lichess is a non-profit association, not a limited company owned by the developer.

alexgmcm 6y ago

In France that's a reasonable salary for an experienced engineer. I agree it's low for someone running the whole show, but then he is doing it as a non-profit. Tech salaries in the US are really high compared to RoW, even once CoL is taken into account.

iSnow 6y ago

Gross avg. wage in France is $42700[1] if calculated with 12 months and no variable benefits. Mean would be more interesting, but I don't seem to easily find it. It might sound weirdly low for someone in IT in the USA, but first, not everyone commands FAANG sales, and second, wages in the EU are comparatively low. With some seniority, you can rise to $100k relatively easily, but you have to sell your soul to either some consulting company or old Fortune-500 industries. So could be the dev takes an above-avg wage which would be around junior to semi experienced level developer and just does what they want to do: build a chess community. EDIT: I don't fully understand the tax part, but if the nonprofit also pays his taxes and he goes out with $54k net, he's doing very, very well for an EU country. I've just reached that level give or take and I have lots of seniority in a really profitable old economy country. If I would be gunning higher, I'd have to do consulting or go the people management track. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Gross_average_monthly_salaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...

FartyMcFarter 6y ago
FAANG salaries in the EU / UK can be nearly as high as in the US though, which in some locations does drive up the compensation for all SWEs.
- MauranKilom 6y ago
  Based on StackOverflow dev survey, EU salaries are roughly 60% of what you get in the US. You'll be hard-pressed to find equivalent positions paying the same in both regions.
  - cbg0 6y ago
    Are those 1:1 comparisons? I know typically in the US salaries advertised are not exactly take-home pay, but before tax amounts, and is some places in Europe salaries are advertised as take-home pay.
    - MauranKilom 6y ago