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> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professi

> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don't understand the supply side. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?

rapsey 6y ago
What you are not taking into account is that health care costs compared to the US are almost nothing. So is the cost of higher education.
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed. My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion. Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone (besides those who are very passionate about software) choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?
  - estaseuropano 6y ago
    Do you only decide on your job for the expected salary?
  - galangalalgol 6y ago
    Because money wasn't the deciding factor? When I became a programmer we didn't have the term software engineer, and we were reviled for our lack of social skills and poorly paid. I miss those days. All my coworkers were motivated by love of the job. If you wanted to make money you went into banking or finance or law.
    - kazen44 6y ago
      This argument goes for a lot of jobs btw, not just SWE. Healthcare is a major example. Most people in the netherlands i know who work in healthcare do so because they want to help people, not to get rich.
  - KptMarchewa 6y ago
    Because I'm extremely unpassionate about being an actuary.
  - deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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querez 6y ago
You can make a very decent living on an SWE salary in Germany, and still get to live in a social democracy with a stronger emphasis on "social" than the US (i.e., very solid public services like transportation, education or health care) with a work/life balance that's more strongly tilted in favor of "life" than the US, from what I understand. It's a trade-off, but it's worth it for many.
- sneak 6y ago
  You'd have to tilt a lot more than what Germany does to make it worth it; equivalent healthcare in the US is only €15k in additional costs. (The messy healthcare situation the US is famous for only really affects the poor.)
  - frockington1 6y ago
    Not too mention most US software engineers probably have healthcare provided by an employer
  - grw_ 6y ago
    It only _directly_ affects the poor- regardless of whether I as can afford these things, it benefits me to live in a society where everyone (including "the poor") is educated to a high standard, is not living in fear of financial distress due to minor illness, and is able to pursue their vocations out of choice rather than necessity
- dsnr 6y ago
  You’re saying it like everyone can’t wait to live in a welfare state and having to provide for the “welfare” of others. I for one am not looking for anything else than good healthcare. There’s nothing “tilted” for life when you struggle to make ends meet while paying sky-high rent and having no prospects of ever owning your home.
  - martin_a 6y ago
    > having to provide for the “welfare” of others. It's only fair. Once you get old, the young and healthy will pay for your hospital stay, too, through the insurance mix. But we could also just let you die because you can't pay the treatment. You'll have to decide, there's no free cake in the end.
dagw 6y ago
Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? In aggregate software engineers don't make less than any of those fields if that is what you are asking. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field? Because it's pretty fun, relatively easy if you have knack for it, easier to find a job, and on the whole quite well paid and comfortable work.
carlmr 6y ago
I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly: * physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay) * pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old contracts at the big airlines they are almost paid like bus drivers) * accountants (usually a normal salary, but nothing special) * civil engineers / software engineers roughly on the same level, although the latter has an easier time finding a job Lawyers and doctors earn a lot more than engineers (at least looking at my friends in these fields), but they usually also work more, leading to a similar hourly rate. One thing you have to account for in Germany vs the US: * Much higher job stability. * Most people work 35-40h a week and never do unpaid overtime. * 6 weeks paid vacation per year is normal. * You almost never get called into work on the weekend. * CoL isn't as insane as in SF or Seattle, so your salary buys you a decent life. * No copays if you get chronic conditions, cancer or some such. So you don't need to save up for a medical catastrophe.
- jamil7 6y ago
  > I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.
  - DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
    > but that comes with it's own complications in Germany. like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was like and the expenses you had.
    - distances 6y ago
      They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and finding multiple clients per year.
galangalalgol 6y ago
Those numbers are normal in the US too for embedded or game software. Faang salaries are at least 20% higher than other software jobs and counting stocks it can be almost triple a salary for a SWE that is outside the west coast SV culture and isn't a quant. For games and some other interesting problems it is a matter of non monetary compensation. But I have no idea why people writing hardware drivers or engine control software make so much less than someone writing some web back end that is mostly gluing bits together. Even MS pays so much less than Amazon its bizarre.
estaseuropano 6y ago
You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual free weekends, many free public services, affordable healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany - 0€. If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with private time your average western European country is great.
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been discussed many times. My question more was about within Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other professional fields. Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled professions must make significantly more than SWEs. For example in the US, bankers or lawyers are roughly on par with high-end SWEs. I'm would assume German bankers and lawyers are making well more than 60k. If that's the case, what incentive would talented Germans have to pursue software instead of other higher-paid careers? (I could be wrong on my assumptions, maybe skilled professionals in Germany are just much less compensated relative to the median worker in general.)
  - dagw 6y ago
    Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. Most numbers I can find via quick googling seems to put the median annual salary for a SWE in the US at around €75-78k and €55k in Germany. That is pretty close to the 25% number you quoted.
  - distances 6y ago
    All skilled professions have lower pay in Europe, there isn't a "get rich" path. Doctors usually earn more but nowhere near US levels. For me, I can say I didn't consider salary when choosing my field. It's just not a common concern, you're expected to study something you're good at and would enjoy doing. Medical and law were definitely not even remote thoughts for me. It was a happy accident that software engineers are paid so well (relatively). I suppose I just assumed all MSc fields are roughly equal and quite acceptable as far as salary goes.
venj 6y ago
It's very hard to compare European and US salaries: in a lot of European countries, you have social security, unemployment and retirement coverage provided by the state and financed by taxes on the salary. So you have a much lower net amount of cash, but you get real benefits that would be part of your negociation in the US.
alkonaut 6y ago
> Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field? Instead of... what? It's not like you can make 2x the salary easily by instead becoming something else. Salaries are pretty flat, if you want to make money you should invest in somethig or have your own company. Also: I'm not sure it's' a good idea to pick jobs based on salaries. It's good to not worry about money at all (which almost no SWEs' need to). After that I'd recommend pursuing sommething one finds interesting. Edit: I think there is a cultural difference in the US where one is expected to aggregate net worth/savings throughout one's career, for many reasons (ability to send kids to better schools, saving for rainy day e.g. sickness, ...). In a welfare state I don't have that priority. I wouldn't switch to a job paying 2x the money unless it's really a interesting job! Because there is almost nothing that 2x the money would do to my lifestyle, the future prospects or security of my family etc.
- zeku 6y ago
  This is a great point. I'm American and my girlfriend and I make close to the same amount of money. We have recently decided to live(buy a home etc.) off of just one salary and completely invest the other salary because the penalty for getting sick and losing your job in the USA is so high that we don't feel comfortable spending most of both salaries. ALSO, this is only possible because we each make 150% of the median household income in our city. Our country is awful for the average person, it really really is. Oh yeah forgot to mention the combined $90,000 in debt we have in student loans(so we can get these jobs) and car payments(so we can drive and exist in society). It's just such a stupid way to organize a society... To drive this point back to the conversation at hand--these American pressures are what drive the mindset that dominates most of any English speaking dev forum.
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  > In a welfare state I don't have that priority I just don't believe that's true. Many, many more Germans immigrate to Switzerland, the UK or even America than vice versa. That's primarily because professional salaries in the latter are higher. That strongly suggests that at least some non-negligible proportion of German professionals care about compensation.

rapsey 6y ago

What you are not taking into account is that health care costs compared to the US are almost nothing. So is the cost of higher education.

dcolkitt 6y ago
I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed. My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion. Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone (besides those who are very passionate about software) choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?
- estaseuropano 6y ago
  Do you only decide on your job for the expected salary?
- galangalalgol 6y ago
  Because money wasn't the deciding factor? When I became a programmer we didn't have the term software engineer, and we were reviled for our lack of social skills and poorly paid. I miss those days. All my coworkers were motivated by love of the job. If you wanted to make money you went into banking or finance or law.
  - kazen44 6y ago
    This argument goes for a lot of jobs btw, not just SWE. Healthcare is a major example. Most people in the netherlands i know who work in healthcare do so because they want to help people, not to get rich.
- KptMarchewa 6y ago
  Because I'm extremely unpassionate about being an actuary.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

querez 6y ago

You can make a very decent living on an SWE salary in Germany, and still get to live in a social democracy with a stronger emphasis on "social" than the US (i.e., very solid public services like transportation, education or health care) with a work/life balance that's more strongly tilted in favor of "life" than the US, from what I understand. It's a trade-off, but it's worth it for many.

sneak 6y ago
You'd have to tilt a lot more than what Germany does to make it worth it; equivalent healthcare in the US is only €15k in additional costs. (The messy healthcare situation the US is famous for only really affects the poor.)
- frockington1 6y ago
  Not too mention most US software engineers probably have healthcare provided by an employer
- grw_ 6y ago
  It only _directly_ affects the poor- regardless of whether I as can afford these things, it benefits me to live in a society where everyone (including "the poor") is educated to a high standard, is not living in fear of financial distress due to minor illness, and is able to pursue their vocations out of choice rather than necessity
dsnr 6y ago
You’re saying it like everyone can’t wait to live in a welfare state and having to provide for the “welfare” of others. I for one am not looking for anything else than good healthcare. There’s nothing “tilted” for life when you struggle to make ends meet while paying sky-high rent and having no prospects of ever owning your home.
- martin_a 6y ago
  > having to provide for the “welfare” of others. It's only fair. Once you get old, the young and healthy will pay for your hospital stay, too, through the insurance mix. But we could also just let you die because you can't pay the treatment. You'll have to decide, there's no free cake in the end.

dagw 6y ago

Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? In aggregate software engineers don't make less than any of those fields if that is what you are asking. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field? Because it's pretty fun, relatively easy if you have knack for it, easier to find a job, and on the whole quite well paid and comfortable work.

carlmr 6y ago

I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly: * physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay) * pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old contracts at the big airlines they are almost paid like bus drivers) * accountants (usually a normal salary, but nothing special) * civil engineers / software engineers roughly on the same level, although the latter has an easier time finding a job Lawyers and doctors earn a lot more than engineers (at least looking at my friends in these fields), but they usually also work more, leading to a similar hourly rate. One thing you have to account for in Germany vs the US: * Much higher job stability. * Most people work 35-40h a week and never do unpaid overtime. * 6 weeks paid vacation per year is normal. * You almost never get called into work on the weekend. * CoL isn't as insane as in SF or Seattle, so your salary buys you a decent life. * No copays if you get chronic conditions, cancer or some such. So you don't need to save up for a medical catastrophe.

jamil7 6y ago
> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  > but that comes with it's own complications in Germany. like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was like and the expenses you had.
  - distances 6y ago
    They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and finding multiple clients per year.

galangalalgol 6y ago

Those numbers are normal in the US too for embedded or game software. Faang salaries are at least 20% higher than other software jobs and counting stocks it can be almost triple a salary for a SWE that is outside the west coast SV culture and isn't a quant. For games and some other interesting problems it is a matter of non monetary compensation. But I have no idea why people writing hardware drivers or engine control software make so much less than someone writing some web back end that is mostly gluing bits together. Even MS pays so much less than Amazon its bizarre.

estaseuropano 6y ago

You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual free weekends, many free public services, affordable healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany - 0€. If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with private time your average western European country is great.

dcolkitt 6y ago
Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been discussed many times. My question more was about within Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other professional fields. Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled professions must make significantly more than SWEs. For example in the US, bankers or lawyers are roughly on par with high-end SWEs. I'm would assume German bankers and lawyers are making well more than 60k. If that's the case, what incentive would talented Germans have to pursue software instead of other higher-paid careers? (I could be wrong on my assumptions, maybe skilled professionals in Germany are just much less compensated relative to the median worker in general.)
- dagw 6y ago
  Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. Most numbers I can find via quick googling seems to put the median annual salary for a SWE in the US at around €75-78k and €55k in Germany. That is pretty close to the 25% number you quoted.
- distances 6y ago
  All skilled professions have lower pay in Europe, there isn't a "get rich" path. Doctors usually earn more but nowhere near US levels. For me, I can say I didn't consider salary when choosing my field. It's just not a common concern, you're expected to study something you're good at and would enjoy doing. Medical and law were definitely not even remote thoughts for me. It was a happy accident that software engineers are paid so well (relatively). I suppose I just assumed all MSc fields are roughly equal and quite acceptable as far as salary goes.

venj 6y ago

It's very hard to compare European and US salaries: in a lot of European countries, you have social security, unemployment and retirement coverage provided by the state and financed by taxes on the salary. So you have a much lower net amount of cash, but you get real benefits that would be part of your negociation in the US.

alkonaut 6y ago

> Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field? Instead of... what? It's not like you can make 2x the salary easily by instead becoming something else. Salaries are pretty flat, if you want to make money you should invest in somethig or have your own company. Also: I'm not sure it's' a good idea to pick jobs based on salaries. It's good to not worry about money at all (which almost no SWEs' need to). After that I'd recommend pursuing sommething one finds interesting. Edit: I think there is a cultural difference in the US where one is expected to aggregate net worth/savings throughout one's career, for many reasons (ability to send kids to better schools, saving for rainy day e.g. sickness, ...). In a welfare state I don't have that priority. I wouldn't switch to a job paying 2x the money unless it's really a interesting job! Because there is almost nothing that 2x the money would do to my lifestyle, the future prospects or security of my family etc.

zeku 6y ago
This is a great point. I'm American and my girlfriend and I make close to the same amount of money. We have recently decided to live(buy a home etc.) off of just one salary and completely invest the other salary because the penalty for getting sick and losing your job in the USA is so high that we don't feel comfortable spending most of both salaries. ALSO, this is only possible because we each make 150% of the median household income in our city. Our country is awful for the average person, it really really is. Oh yeah forgot to mention the combined $90,000 in debt we have in student loans(so we can get these jobs) and car payments(so we can drive and exist in society). It's just such a stupid way to organize a society... To drive this point back to the conversation at hand--these American pressures are what drive the mindset that dominates most of any English speaking dev forum.
dcolkitt 6y ago
> In a welfare state I don't have that priority I just don't believe that's true. Many, many more Germans immigrate to Switzerland, the UK or even America than vice versa. That's primarily because professional salaries in the latter are higher. That strongly suggests that at least some non-negligible proportion of German professionals care about compensation.