4 ms·

I'm sympathetic to the concerned individual threatened and harmed by corporate lawsuits, but I don't think I share the underlying concern. > In Linkletter’s vi

by mkl 6y ago

I'm sympathetic to the concerned individual threatened and harmed by corporate lawsuits, but I don't think I share the underlying concern. > In Linkletter’s view, customers and users were not getting the whole story. The software performed all kinds of invasive tracking, like watching for “abnormal” eye movements, head movements, and other behaviors branded suspicious by the company. The invasive tracking and filming were of great concern to Linkletter, who was worried about students being penalized academically on the basis of Proctorio’s analysis. In an in-person invigilated test environment, the invigilator/proctor is watching students carefully for suspicious movements and behaviours. We don't call that an invasion of privacy. While I don't like commercial proctoring software (I have to use some, not Proctorio, for students who can't enter the country because of Covid-19), being videoed by a machine while you do a test is a) not much different from everyone else in the class who's being watched in person (you probably get watched less, actually), b) a way to make sure essential academic standards are upheld. No one is going to get penalised based on some fallible "AI" system; "suspicious" events get reviewed by a person and usually aren't suspicious at all.

anovikov 6y ago
But i think it's OK to install the software just on a laptop you'd use to take tests, some old laptop, and keep yourself free of surveillance otherwise right? If so, i can't see how is it a problem: someone absolutely has to be watched while taking a test. But if it's during whole education process, then yeah, it's ridiculous and worth fighting against.
- daemin 6y ago
  For some people "some old laptop" is all they actually have. I don't imagine a lot of students have both a desktop, a laptop, and "some old laptop" that they can use, so the software will get installed on the single computer they use (or share) to get their studies done on.
- eythian 6y ago
  Not everyone has an old laptop lying around they can use for such a purpose.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  But i think it's OK to install the software just on a laptop you'd use to take tests, some old laptop, and keep yourself free of surveillance otherwise right? That's a fairly classist assumption that someone has multiple devices, including some older piece of junk that's late model enough to be useful for test taking but still essentially a "throw away." It implicitly means that adequate right to privacy is only reserved for wealthy kids and not for anyone who only has one computer. That's not to suggest that I support this assumption even in cases where it's true. I'm just trying to point out a common blind spot that leads comfortably well-off people to often act with callous disregard towards those who have less because it isn't a big problem for themselves.
- mkl 6y ago
  The software is only running during the test. Most students install it on their main laptop, and they don't seem to have much problem with that. It runs with elevated privileges (so it can make sure it's the only program running), and it's proprietary, both of which I have objections to, but unless I'm missing something and Proctorio is quite different from the software I've used, I don't see much problem with it. In Covid-19 times everyone puts up with things they don't like.
  - anovikov 6y ago
    OK then at all, i can't see the problem. Unless there is a reasonable suspicion that it's malware and infects your machine with something that still keeps tabs on you when it's as if not running.
- em-bee 6y ago
  it's pretty unrealistic to expect everyone to have a spare laptop around.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    Assuming you have enough RAM, I guess you could run it in a VM.
    - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
      Programs like this usually attempt to detect and forbid being run in a VM.
      - em-bee 6y ago
        instead, an actually workable solution would be dual booting. that only needs some disk space. only downside is that it's a bit tricky to set up if you want to dual-boot two windows systems.
anfilt 6y ago
It's their personal computer though.
JDW1023 6y ago
People can have different expectation of privacy at home versus in classroom/testing facility.
fxtentacle 6y ago
"She then reviewed the flagged sections of the video with her university's dean, who she says agreed that her conduct throughout the test had been honest. This, however, did not resolve the situation. The dean, she explained, said she might still need to re-take the exam." https://www.insider.com/viral-tiktok-student-fails-exam-after-ai-software-flags-cheating-2020-10 https://www.insider.com/viral-tiktok-student-fails-exam-afte...
- mkl 6y ago
  That's the dean's mistake. This kind of software categorically does not detect cheating, and cannot be relied solely upon; only a staff member can make that decision. For example, I had one student using proctoring software whose father came into the room during the test, and I as the supervising staff member recognised the event for what it was and ignored it. I don't much like such software, but I accept the current need for it. The problems people are describing seem to be faulty staff behaviour, not software.
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    The software will automatically block your screen, meaning you cannot finish the exam if it accidentally activates. "I was on the second question of an exam composed of 45 questions and I got a black screen. I'm still waiting to see what's going to happen as this is my final......... I tried to access the exam but was locked out and when i went to the exam the chat option wasn't available either. I emailed my professor and unfortunately, he wasn't watching the exam at the time and couldn't do much to help me out." https://www.reddit.com/r/UBC/comments/g2ub05/god_kicked_out_half_way_through_my_exam/g21ja6k/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UBC/comments/g2ub05/god_kicked_out_...
    - mkl 6y ago
      The software sounds faulty. The black screen is terrible UX; it should just silently set a bookmark and let the student continue. The overall outcome (and the student's experience and stress) is ultimately a staff issue. The professor should have been on call, and should have been able to get the student back into the questions, or, failing that, to offer another sitting. I have done both of these, among other remedies, and setting student expectations ahead of time is crucial for avoiding massively stressful problems (stuff like "If something goes wrong, stop and email me. I can add lost your time back and get you into the test again, no matter how long it takes to sort out. You won't lose marks from this." and actually follow through). Software inevitably fails sometimes, and it is just a tool. Staff need to make their own decisions.
initplus 6y ago
If your software is ethical, why smear your own name by bringing a spurious lawsuit against a singled out individual like this? There are real concerns around privacy with software like this - what will happen if some criminal finds an exploit in Proctorio's software? This kind of monitoring software is often designed to be hard to detect or bypass, and installs itself in ways that are challenging to remove. Development of this kind of software should be done with a high degree of caution and care. There isn't a risk that an invigilator will be compromised by a malicious actor, and then see every detail of students lives and all their private data for all time. But this risk does exist for software. If Proctorio takes legal action like this against critics what does that say about their software?
- mkl 6y ago
  Agreed, the lawsuit is a terrible thing to do full stop, and doesn't seem to make business sense either. Maybe they think his critiques are worse than the bad press. I agree about the privacy concerns, and in normal circumstances I wouldn't use proctoring software, because all my students would be local (or they would have signed up as distance students knowing this kind of thing would be needed). I would also have much less issue with it if it was open source. I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option. The alternatives have greater deficiencies: human invigilators using Zoom etc. don't scale (institution experience); oral exams don't scale (my experience moderating such assessments); no invigilation leads to cheating (by few students but enough to be a real problem, especially for professional qualifications - my direct experience and institution experience); shutting down education until the pandemic's over is unfeasible.
  - cassalian 6y ago
    > I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option... shutting down education until the pandemic's over is unfeasible. Is it necessary though? Have you considered there are ways other than testing for a student to demonstrate their knowledge on a subject? Projects, presentations, and writing all come to mind as effective ways to measure knowledge on a subject and do not require treating all students like cheaters because a few choose to do so.
noisy_boy 6y ago
What the invigilator sees, stays in his/her head. They are not recording things with their eyes; this software is doing that (I'm not sure of the extent, how much is client side vs server side, anonymization levels etc). However, I'm making that assumption based on the fact that if a person disputes something, a recording of the event would be required to ascertain the facts. That kind of information can be damaging in case of security breach; e.g. someone could have a habit of picking noses when lost in thought or changing clothes during the exam (they might reasonably do that in their home and not in a public exam with invigilator present). If such videos leak due to security breaches and catch circulation on internet, the people in them can be subject to ridicule or invasion of privacy online.
cycomanic 6y ago
You make two assertions that are both clearly incorrect. Your point a) there clearly is a difference between watched (not filmed) in class and a software, filming you, recording audio, monitoring everything you type and what your computer is doing _in your own home_. Saying there is no difference is akeen to stating a police officer watches you in public, so let's install cameras in everyone's home. b) you say that nobody will be penalised by based on an AI system, despite there being lots of reports of exactly that happening (some where even posted a bit further up thread).
sireat 6y ago
I am a lector at a University and would never force my students to install something that is so privacy invading as Proctorio on student's own computers. If you absolutely need this type of monitoring it should be done at some sort of testing center on cleanly imaged computers. I could see it being done for something absolutely crucial such as a bar exam. Proctorio and its ilk should not be used for simple mid-terms or even finals. This monitoring software becomes a huge crutch to lazy administrators and teachers. I should know I am lazy too. PS While we are on the slippery slope, if Proctorio becomes standard we rapidly head to Snow Crash situation where federal jobs were heavily monitored. Already many freelancer sites use screenrecording software.
- christophilus 6y ago
  > I could see it being done for something absolutely crucial such as a bar exam. Why? How did we ever produce lawyers in the past without Proctorio?
  - mkl 6y ago
    In person exams. In a pandemic, that can be a problem.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    The legal profession's dirty little secret is that the bar exam doesn't really matter. It's little more than a rite of passage and a good excuse for law firms to wait before bringing in the needy newbies before the summer associates have left. Cheating on the bar exam would present a serious character and fitness issue but not having the requisite knowledge to pass the bar exam would not at all impact a person's ability to practice law.
- mkl 6y ago
  If you have a testing centre you don't need this kind of software, and if your students are scattered across the world due to Covid-19 travel restrictions, you can't have a testing centre for them. I consider invigilation absolutely crucial in a professional engineering degree in mid-terms and finals (engineers are more likely to hurt more people than lawyers). I don't think this kind of software is a crutch for the lazy; it's more work to organise and manage than human invigilators, and doesn't scale as well. I don't think it's a slippery slope. We will have significantly more local students than remote for the foreseeable future, and the local students are invigilated in person. We have students wanting to opt into remote study, including using this software, but so far if they're local we tell them no (except under extreme circumstances).
tobr 6y ago
> being videoed by a machine while you do a test is a) not much different from everyone else in the class who's being watched in person > "suspicious" events get reviewed by a person Being taped and having that tape scrutinized after the fact is not equivalent to being in the same room as an invigilator. I could accept a live video call as being roughly equivalent, but not if it’s recorded.

by mkl 6y ago

anovikov 6y ago

But i think it's OK to install the software just on a laptop you'd use to take tests, some old laptop, and keep yourself free of surveillance otherwise right? If so, i can't see how is it a problem: someone absolutely has to be watched while taking a test. But if it's during whole education process, then yeah, it's ridiculous and worth fighting against.

daemin 6y ago
For some people "some old laptop" is all they actually have. I don't imagine a lot of students have both a desktop, a laptop, and "some old laptop" that they can use, so the software will get installed on the single computer they use (or share) to get their studies done on.
eythian 6y ago
Not everyone has an old laptop lying around they can use for such a purpose.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
But i think it's OK to install the software just on a laptop you'd use to take tests, some old laptop, and keep yourself free of surveillance otherwise right? That's a fairly classist assumption that someone has multiple devices, including some older piece of junk that's late model enough to be useful for test taking but still essentially a "throw away." It implicitly means that adequate right to privacy is only reserved for wealthy kids and not for anyone who only has one computer. That's not to suggest that I support this assumption even in cases where it's true. I'm just trying to point out a common blind spot that leads comfortably well-off people to often act with callous disregard towards those who have less because it isn't a big problem for themselves.
mkl 6y ago
The software is only running during the test. Most students install it on their main laptop, and they don't seem to have much problem with that. It runs with elevated privileges (so it can make sure it's the only program running), and it's proprietary, both of which I have objections to, but unless I'm missing something and Proctorio is quite different from the software I've used, I don't see much problem with it. In Covid-19 times everyone puts up with things they don't like.
- anovikov 6y ago
  OK then at all, i can't see the problem. Unless there is a reasonable suspicion that it's malware and infects your machine with something that still keeps tabs on you when it's as if not running.
em-bee 6y ago
it's pretty unrealistic to expect everyone to have a spare laptop around.
- GordonS 6y ago
  Assuming you have enough RAM, I guess you could run it in a VM.
  - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
    Programs like this usually attempt to detect and forbid being run in a VM.
    - em-bee 6y ago
      instead, an actually workable solution would be dual booting. that only needs some disk space. only downside is that it's a bit tricky to set up if you want to dual-boot two windows systems.

anfilt 6y ago

It's their personal computer though.

JDW1023 6y ago

People can have different expectation of privacy at home versus in classroom/testing facility.

fxtentacle 6y ago

"She then reviewed the flagged sections of the video with her university's dean, who she says agreed that her conduct throughout the test had been honest. This, however, did not resolve the situation. The dean, she explained, said she might still need to re-take the exam." https://www.insider.com/viral-tiktok-student-fails-exam-after-ai-software-flags-cheating-2020-10 https://www.insider.com/viral-tiktok-student-fails-exam-afte...

mkl 6y ago
That's the dean's mistake. This kind of software categorically does not detect cheating, and cannot be relied solely upon; only a staff member can make that decision. For example, I had one student using proctoring software whose father came into the room during the test, and I as the supervising staff member recognised the event for what it was and ignored it. I don't much like such software, but I accept the current need for it. The problems people are describing seem to be faulty staff behaviour, not software.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  The software will automatically block your screen, meaning you cannot finish the exam if it accidentally activates. "I was on the second question of an exam composed of 45 questions and I got a black screen. I'm still waiting to see what's going to happen as this is my final......... I tried to access the exam but was locked out and when i went to the exam the chat option wasn't available either. I emailed my professor and unfortunately, he wasn't watching the exam at the time and couldn't do much to help me out." https://www.reddit.com/r/UBC/comments/g2ub05/god_kicked_out_half_way_through_my_exam/g21ja6k/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UBC/comments/g2ub05/god_kicked_out_...
  - mkl 6y ago
    The software sounds faulty. The black screen is terrible UX; it should just silently set a bookmark and let the student continue. The overall outcome (and the student's experience and stress) is ultimately a staff issue. The professor should have been on call, and should have been able to get the student back into the questions, or, failing that, to offer another sitting. I have done both of these, among other remedies, and setting student expectations ahead of time is crucial for avoiding massively stressful problems (stuff like "If something goes wrong, stop and email me. I can add lost your time back and get you into the test again, no matter how long it takes to sort out. You won't lose marks from this." and actually follow through). Software inevitably fails sometimes, and it is just a tool. Staff need to make their own decisions.

initplus 6y ago

If your software is ethical, why smear your own name by bringing a spurious lawsuit against a singled out individual like this? There are real concerns around privacy with software like this - what will happen if some criminal finds an exploit in Proctorio's software? This kind of monitoring software is often designed to be hard to detect or bypass, and installs itself in ways that are challenging to remove. Development of this kind of software should be done with a high degree of caution and care. There isn't a risk that an invigilator will be compromised by a malicious actor, and then see every detail of students lives and all their private data for all time. But this risk does exist for software. If Proctorio takes legal action like this against critics what does that say about their software?

mkl 6y ago
Agreed, the lawsuit is a terrible thing to do full stop, and doesn't seem to make business sense either. Maybe they think his critiques are worse than the bad press. I agree about the privacy concerns, and in normal circumstances I wouldn't use proctoring software, because all my students would be local (or they would have signed up as distance students knowing this kind of thing would be needed). I would also have much less issue with it if it was open source. I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option. The alternatives have greater deficiencies: human invigilators using Zoom etc. don't scale (institution experience); oral exams don't scale (my experience moderating such assessments); no invigilation leads to cheating (by few students but enough to be a real problem, especially for professional qualifications - my direct experience and institution experience); shutting down education until the pandemic's over is unfeasible.
- cassalian 6y ago
  > I see it as a currently-necessary annoyance, as the least bad option... shutting down education until the pandemic's over is unfeasible. Is it necessary though? Have you considered there are ways other than testing for a student to demonstrate their knowledge on a subject? Projects, presentations, and writing all come to mind as effective ways to measure knowledge on a subject and do not require treating all students like cheaters because a few choose to do so.

noisy_boy 6y ago

What the invigilator sees, stays in his/her head. They are not recording things with their eyes; this software is doing that (I'm not sure of the extent, how much is client side vs server side, anonymization levels etc). However, I'm making that assumption based on the fact that if a person disputes something, a recording of the event would be required to ascertain the facts. That kind of information can be damaging in case of security breach; e.g. someone could have a habit of picking noses when lost in thought or changing clothes during the exam (they might reasonably do that in their home and not in a public exam with invigilator present). If such videos leak due to security breaches and catch circulation on internet, the people in them can be subject to ridicule or invasion of privacy online.

cycomanic 6y ago

You make two assertions that are both clearly incorrect. Your point a) there clearly is a difference between watched (not filmed) in class and a software, filming you, recording audio, monitoring everything you type and what your computer is doing _in your own home_. Saying there is no difference is akeen to stating a police officer watches you in public, so let's install cameras in everyone's home. b) you say that nobody will be penalised by based on an AI system, despite there being lots of reports of exactly that happening (some where even posted a bit further up thread).

sireat 6y ago

I am a lector at a University and would never force my students to install something that is so privacy invading as Proctorio on student's own computers. If you absolutely need this type of monitoring it should be done at some sort of testing center on cleanly imaged computers. I could see it being done for something absolutely crucial such as a bar exam. Proctorio and its ilk should not be used for simple mid-terms or even finals. This monitoring software becomes a huge crutch to lazy administrators and teachers. I should know I am lazy too. PS While we are on the slippery slope, if Proctorio becomes standard we rapidly head to Snow Crash situation where federal jobs were heavily monitored. Already many freelancer sites use screenrecording software.

christophilus 6y ago
> I could see it being done for something absolutely crucial such as a bar exam. Why? How did we ever produce lawyers in the past without Proctorio?
- mkl 6y ago
  In person exams. In a pandemic, that can be a problem.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  The legal profession's dirty little secret is that the bar exam doesn't really matter. It's little more than a rite of passage and a good excuse for law firms to wait before bringing in the needy newbies before the summer associates have left. Cheating on the bar exam would present a serious character and fitness issue but not having the requisite knowledge to pass the bar exam would not at all impact a person's ability to practice law.
mkl 6y ago
If you have a testing centre you don't need this kind of software, and if your students are scattered across the world due to Covid-19 travel restrictions, you can't have a testing centre for them. I consider invigilation absolutely crucial in a professional engineering degree in mid-terms and finals (engineers are more likely to hurt more people than lawyers). I don't think this kind of software is a crutch for the lazy; it's more work to organise and manage than human invigilators, and doesn't scale as well. I don't think it's a slippery slope. We will have significantly more local students than remote for the foreseeable future, and the local students are invigilated in person. We have students wanting to opt into remote study, including using this software, but so far if they're local we tell them no (except under extreme circumstances).

tobr 6y ago

> being videoed by a machine while you do a test is a) not much different from everyone else in the class who's being watched in person > "suspicious" events get reviewed by a person Being taped and having that tape scrutinized after the fact is not equivalent to being in the same room as an invigilator. I could accept a live video call as being roughly equivalent, but not if it’s recorded.