5 ms·

It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed. GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. Your software developer friends are just outlier

It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed. GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. Your software developer friends are just outliers there.

vincnetas 5y ago
And i'm pretty sure that Donbas (separatist region) is receiving weapons not from the west. So in Ukrainian scenario i'm nor sure who has destabilised that region. By the way if you look at Ukrainian GDP over time it shows growth over past years.
koonsolo 5y ago
Ukraine is a big country. When you look at the part close to Russia, yes, that is a warzone. When you look at places like Lviv... warzone??? Yeah right, you can just travel there buddy. Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  > Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU. That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. ATO expansion is undesirable to Russia and counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. Russia has also been testing Western responses to its salami incursions beginning with Abkhazia and now Ukraine. The most it has gotten so far are sanctions (probably better than a full scale war at this point, but longer term this tactic may not succeed as Russia keeps chewing away). American meddling and financing of Euromaidan to topple Yanukovych and shake up Ukrainian politics is what opened the door to Russian pretexts to invade a country whose borders are not only an unstable Soviet construct (culturally speaking), but which plays an important territorial role in Russian security (control of Crimea allows control of the Sea of Azoz). You can probably add NordStream II to the mix, but that's more about gaining the upper hand over Central Europe in cooperation with Germany, hence the farce of EU unity, and in this case, where energy security and its geopolitical consequences are concerned. Thus the need for a Central European bloc that can withstand the grind of American/Western and Russian cultural and geopolitical tectonics. The Three Seas Initiative is ostensibly supposed to accomplish this, exploiting American backing, at least in the beginning. Belarus had historically been oriented toward this center of gravity until the 19th century. The Belarusian opposition certainly leans in the historical direction and the only other alternative is Russian vassalage. This Central European bloc incidentally would function like a buffer that would also serve the security interests of Europe in general.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. I see how profound is your sophisticated understanding of high art of geopolitics... > counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. Do you see Russia keeping to any agreement it had with NATO now? What I see is politicians of NATO member countries running around Putin like headless chicken, trying to decipher some "tough geopolitical riddle," while the later laughs, and keeps sending them his KGB agents.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    >> Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU. > That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. So EU is sending soldiers to the eastern front of Ukraine to fight??? It's well known among Ukrainians who is doing the fighting over there. Ukraine democratically decides to prefer EU over Russia, maybe all parties need to live with that.
    - oldnews193 5y ago
      > Ukraine democratically decides to prefer EU over Russia, maybe all parties need to live with that. Russia has been opposing the expansion of NATO for decades, and Ukrainian politicians at different moments were aiming to join NATO (rather than signing memorandums not to join NATO). I suppose, we Ukrainians can be upset at how unfair it is that our sovereignty is not respected, but that won't earn us any more agency. Russians are the ones with the nukes, overwhelmingly stronger military and with opinions on the matter, so maybe we've got to be smarter about how we navigate through challenges ahead of us.
      - sergeykish 5y ago
        You are free to relocate to occupied territories.
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    > That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. It is pretty clear that Russia invaded another country, they are the country is doing the destabilization. Additional info may be useful to get more detail, but it is not changing basic facts. > ATO expansion is undesirable to Russia and counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. ATO expansion? Counter to which agreements? (I guess this agreements are similar that Ukraine got about integrity of it territory)
caskstrength 5y ago
> It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed. For me it is "here". The fact that for you it is "there" makes me think that you should talk more to actual people that are living in the countries you mentioned in previous post instead of lecturing them over internet with copy/paste of Russian propaganda "news" pieces. Besides, it might be a novel concept for you, but here we have an actual elections. People can always vote for some Russian puppet (Medvedchuk, for example) and "join" Russia. I guess majority thinks that "fucking war" is better alternative in this situation. > GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. Your point being? It is not like Ukraine was some rich local Eastern European Switzerland until sneaky CIA/Soros sponsored NGOs "destabilized" it. > Your software developer friends are just outliers there. Are you intentionally omitting my next sentence?
- levosmetalo 5y ago
  > For me it is "here". The fact that for you it is "there" Sure, and I know some people for whom it was also "here" and now it's "there" because they can't live any more in their hometown because of war. For you guys "here" in Kiev Donbas is also "there". > Besides, it might be a novel concept for you, but here we have an actual elections. People can always vote for some Russian puppet (Medvedchuk, for example) and "join" Russia. I guess majority thinks that "fucking war" is better alternative in this situation. And that's why Ukraine will never be a prosperous country, as long as you consider a "fucking war" a better alternative to anything. The majority has been brainwashed by "western" propaganda to hate everything Russian, to the point it would rather have "fucking war" against their ex citizen in Donbas and Crimea instead of letting them choose where and how they want to live. Those guys in Donbas and Crimea also had elections and referendums, not worse than those in Ukraine, and they decided they don't want to live with someone who is denying them basic human rights based on the wrong ethnicity. Would you rather kill them all than let them go? And since you want to kill all the ethnic Russians why are you surprised that Russia won't let you do it? NATO is happy to have war against Russia or Russian allies to the last Ukrainian solder and civilian.
  - minipci1321 5y ago
    > NATO is happy to have war against Russia or Russian allies to the last Ukrainian solder and civilian. I think this devalues your all other arguments. Where it comes from?
throwaway894345 5y ago
> GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. I don’t know what to make of this comment; it’s certainly wrong by a wide margin. The entire country’s GDP cannot be less than I take home per paycheck. I thought maybe it was per-capita GDP, but the 2021 IMF estimate is $13k—almost 4x your figure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...
- sergeykish 5y ago
  That's value of GDP (nominal) per capita, year 2019. 2021 estimate is $3,984 [1]. Not much, yes, but that's in post USSR country that's fighting eighth year Russia agression. PPP is purchasing power parity. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no...
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Ah, thank you for clarifying.

It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed. GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. Your software developer friends are just outliers there.

vincnetas 5y ago

And i'm pretty sure that Donbas (separatist region) is receiving weapons not from the west. So in Ukrainian scenario i'm nor sure who has destabilised that region. By the way if you look at Ukrainian GDP over time it shows growth over past years.

koonsolo 5y ago

Ukraine is a big country. When you look at the part close to Russia, yes, that is a warzone. When you look at places like Lviv... warzone??? Yeah right, you can just travel there buddy. Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU.

bobthechef 5y ago
> Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU. That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. ATO expansion is undesirable to Russia and counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. Russia has also been testing Western responses to its salami incursions beginning with Abkhazia and now Ukraine. The most it has gotten so far are sanctions (probably better than a full scale war at this point, but longer term this tactic may not succeed as Russia keeps chewing away). American meddling and financing of Euromaidan to topple Yanukovych and shake up Ukrainian politics is what opened the door to Russian pretexts to invade a country whose borders are not only an unstable Soviet construct (culturally speaking), but which plays an important territorial role in Russian security (control of Crimea allows control of the Sea of Azoz). You can probably add NordStream II to the mix, but that's more about gaining the upper hand over Central Europe in cooperation with Germany, hence the farce of EU unity, and in this case, where energy security and its geopolitical consequences are concerned. Thus the need for a Central European bloc that can withstand the grind of American/Western and Russian cultural and geopolitical tectonics. The Three Seas Initiative is ostensibly supposed to accomplish this, exploiting American backing, at least in the beginning. Belarus had historically been oriented toward this center of gravity until the 19th century. The Belarusian opposition certainly leans in the historical direction and the only other alternative is Russian vassalage. This Central European bloc incidentally would function like a buffer that would also serve the security interests of Europe in general.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. I see how profound is your sophisticated understanding of high art of geopolitics... > counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. Do you see Russia keeping to any agreement it had with NATO now? What I see is politicians of NATO member countries running around Putin like headless chicken, trying to decipher some "tough geopolitical riddle," while the later laughs, and keeps sending them his KGB agents.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  >> Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU. > That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. So EU is sending soldiers to the eastern front of Ukraine to fight??? It's well known among Ukrainians who is doing the fighting over there. Ukraine democratically decides to prefer EU over Russia, maybe all parties need to live with that.
  - oldnews193 5y ago
    > Ukraine democratically decides to prefer EU over Russia, maybe all parties need to live with that. Russia has been opposing the expansion of NATO for decades, and Ukrainian politicians at different moments were aiming to join NATO (rather than signing memorandums not to join NATO). I suppose, we Ukrainians can be upset at how unfair it is that our sovereignty is not respected, but that won't earn us any more agency. Russians are the ones with the nukes, overwhelmingly stronger military and with opinions on the matter, so maybe we've got to be smarter about how we navigate through challenges ahead of us.
    - sergeykish 5y ago
      You are free to relocate to occupied territories.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  > That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. It is pretty clear that Russia invaded another country, they are the country is doing the destabilization. Additional info may be useful to get more detail, but it is not changing basic facts. > ATO expansion is undesirable to Russia and counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. ATO expansion? Counter to which agreements? (I guess this agreements are similar that Ukraine got about integrity of it territory)

caskstrength 5y ago

> It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed. For me it is "here". The fact that for you it is "there" makes me think that you should talk more to actual people that are living in the countries you mentioned in previous post instead of lecturing them over internet with copy/paste of Russian propaganda "news" pieces. Besides, it might be a novel concept for you, but here we have an actual elections. People can always vote for some Russian puppet (Medvedchuk, for example) and "join" Russia. I guess majority thinks that "fucking war" is better alternative in this situation. > GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. Your point being? It is not like Ukraine was some rich local Eastern European Switzerland until sneaky CIA/Soros sponsored NGOs "destabilized" it. > Your software developer friends are just outliers there. Are you intentionally omitting my next sentence?

levosmetalo 5y ago
> For me it is "here". The fact that for you it is "there" Sure, and I know some people for whom it was also "here" and now it's "there" because they can't live any more in their hometown because of war. For you guys "here" in Kiev Donbas is also "there". > Besides, it might be a novel concept for you, but here we have an actual elections. People can always vote for some Russian puppet (Medvedchuk, for example) and "join" Russia. I guess majority thinks that "fucking war" is better alternative in this situation. And that's why Ukraine will never be a prosperous country, as long as you consider a "fucking war" a better alternative to anything. The majority has been brainwashed by "western" propaganda to hate everything Russian, to the point it would rather have "fucking war" against their ex citizen in Donbas and Crimea instead of letting them choose where and how they want to live. Those guys in Donbas and Crimea also had elections and referendums, not worse than those in Ukraine, and they decided they don't want to live with someone who is denying them basic human rights based on the wrong ethnicity. Would you rather kill them all than let them go? And since you want to kill all the ethnic Russians why are you surprised that Russia won't let you do it? NATO is happy to have war against Russia or Russian allies to the last Ukrainian solder and civilian.
- minipci1321 5y ago
  > NATO is happy to have war against Russia or Russian allies to the last Ukrainian solder and civilian. I think this devalues your all other arguments. Where it comes from?

throwaway894345 5y ago

> GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. I don’t know what to make of this comment; it’s certainly wrong by a wide margin. The entire country’s GDP cannot be less than I take home per paycheck. I thought maybe it was per-capita GDP, but the 2021 IMF estimate is $13k—almost 4x your figure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...

sergeykish 5y ago
That's value of GDP (nominal) per capita, year 2019. 2021 estimate is $3,984 [1]. Not much, yes, but that's in post USSR country that's fighting eighth year Russia agression. PPP is purchasing power parity. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(no...
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Ah, thank you for clarifying.