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List of countries where "the West" organized a coup against a "corrupt murderer dictator" to establish "democratic elected government": - Ukraine - Syria - Lib

List of countries where "the West" organized a coup against a "corrupt murderer dictator" to establish "democratic elected government": - Ukraine - Syria - Libya - Georgia - Iraq - Iran - Afghanistan - Yugoslavia - Venezuela - Cuba - ex-Yugoslavia - Chile - ... All those countries were devastated by the "democratization". I would like to see one example where that went good for the local population in general and where that brought progress and prosperity.

oytis 5y ago
Former Yugoslavia countries are doing pretty well actually. Genocides has been stopped, nations were able to establish their own countries, none of them returned to a dictatorship, all have democratically elected governments. Definitely better than before.
- hulitu 5y ago
  And the economy was destroyed. Definitely better than before.
  - oytis 5y ago
    That's a bold claim. It was a communist dictatorship first - not sure if there is a reasonable way to compare GDP of a communist country with a normal country. Then there was an endless civil war - that's hardly good for economy too. Today these are quite comparable to other Eastern European countries. Croatia has a larger GDP per capita than Romania, Montenegro is somewhere in Turkey's league, Serbia is pretty poor, but still much better than Belarus and Ukraine.
  - Mediterraneo10 5y ago
    You have things backwards. It was an economic decline that helped to motivate the collapse of Yugoslavia. If things in Yugoslavia had stayed as nice as in the 1960s and early 1970s -- the era of the vikendica and middle-class holidays in Bali, -- nationalist grievances might not have gained ground.
- levosmetalo 5y ago
  And still a big number of people that remember Yugoslavia will tell you they lived better, it was less crime, better education, less poverty, less inequality, more actual freedom. Btw, the war and genocides are a result of "the west" messing up there. If "the west" wasn't so eager to destroy Yugoslavia none of the war and genocides would happen.
powerapple 5y ago
The problem is that West is not helping them enough. Try finishing Iraq first before getting into other places. Building Iraq will take more time than bombing Iraq. It will need sending money instead of extracting oil. The problem is that, no, that's not what people want. You only want Sadam to go and don't care about anything else. The media, the NGO, the activists just move on to next target because it is always easy to pointing out a problem than fixing a problem.
pjc50 5y ago
Yugoslavia was not destroyed by the West, it was destroyed by Serbian nationalism and a set of ancient racial and religious hatreds.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  What ancient racial hatreds? The Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians are practically the same ethnic group! The difference is religious!
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    To be fair, there's also Albanians (Kosovo). Still, not sure if 'racial' applies though.
caskstrength 5y ago
> - Ukraine - ... > All those countries were devastated by the "democratization". I'm not sure what you mean by "devastated". Software development jobs market is flourishing and my friends from other industries are not doing that bad either. Are you watching/reading Russian news sources by any chance?
- levosmetalo 5y ago
  It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed. GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. Your software developer friends are just outliers there.
  - vincnetas 5y ago
    And i'm pretty sure that Donbas (separatist region) is receiving weapons not from the west. So in Ukrainian scenario i'm nor sure who has destabilised that region. By the way if you look at Ukrainian GDP over time it shows growth over past years.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    Ukraine is a big country. When you look at the part close to Russia, yes, that is a warzone. When you look at places like Lviv... warzone??? Yeah right, you can just travel there buddy. Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU.
    - bobthechef 5y ago
      > Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU. That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. ATO expansion is undesirable to Russia and counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. Russia has also been testing Western responses to its salami incursions beginning with Abkhazia and now Ukraine. The most it has gotten so far are sanctions (probably better than a full scale war at this point, but longer term this tactic may not succeed as Russia keeps chewing away). American meddling and financing of Euromaidan to topple Yanukovych and shake up Ukrainian politics is what opened the door to Russian pretexts to invade a country whose borders are not only an unstable Soviet construct (culturally speaking), but which plays an important territorial role in Russian security (control of Crimea allows control of the Sea of Azoz). You can probably add NordStream II to the mix, but that's more about gaining the upper hand over Central Europe in cooperation with Germany, hence the farce of EU unity, and in this case, where energy security and its geopolitical consequences are concerned. Thus the need for a Central European bloc that can withstand the grind of American/Western and Russian cultural and geopolitical tectonics. The Three Seas Initiative is ostensibly supposed to accomplish this, exploiting American backing, at least in the beginning. Belarus had historically been oriented toward this center of gravity until the 19th century. The Belarusian opposition certainly leans in the historical direction and the only other alternative is Russian vassalage. This Central European bloc incidentally would function like a buffer that would also serve the security interests of Europe in general.
jholman 5y ago
Japan? South Korea? Just brainstorming, here.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  The US propped up murderous dictators in both, more explicitly in South Korea but they also helped a war criminal entrench the LDP in Japan. Their shift to democracy happened much later and was not the result of a Western coup.
- publicola1990 5y ago
  Also Taiwan.
puszczyk 5y ago
What about Poland, the Baltic States, Czechia and Slovakia, Hungary? Also devastated? I’m sure we’d do much better with our friends in Moscow calling the shots.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  Calling the Revolutions of 1989 a "Western coup" seems wrong. And blindly stating it's better to be a puppet of the West than Russia is not really backed up by history and ignores the turmoil of any transition period.
- b0rsuk 5y ago
  Poland is currently circling the drain in toilet. The regime that gained power in 2015 did so with the help of Russia* and is covertly pro-Russian (watch their actions, not their words). It's no longer a democracy but an informational autocracy - like Venezuela, Russia, Ecuador, Peru, Malaysia, Hungary. * Marek Falenta imported coal from Russia and owes A LOT of money to Russian raw resource companies. The restaurants where the illegal wiretapping took place were set up by Russian raw resource companies. * "Obcym Alfabetem - Jak ludzie Kremla i PiS zagrali podsłuchami" (Grzegorz Rzeczkowski) * "Macierewicz i jego tajemnice" (Tomasz Piątek) * "Rydzyk i Przyjaciele" (Tomasz Piątek) * https://oko.press/pis-wciaz-rzadzi-bo-zyjemy-w-informacyjnej-autokracji/ (Anna Mierzyńska) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFydXPLCpL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFydXPLCpL8
rafaelm 5y ago
I can speak for Venezuela, and the corrupt murderer dictator party has been in power for just over 20 years. The country was completely ruined by the "corrupt murderer dictator" without any input from "the West".
- unnouinceput 5y ago
  I would not call US sanctions "without input from the West" https://www.state.gov/venezuela-related-sanctions/ https://www.state.gov/venezuela-related-sanctions/
  - stadium 5y ago
    Pretty sure sanctions didn't start until after they nationalized (stole) the major foreign owned companies.
    - rafaelm 5y ago
      Not only that, they have been in power for over 20 years, with the highest oil prices ever. They've consistenly stolen all of the country's resources and destroyed the economy during all these years. The sanctions started 2-3 years ago.
  - rafaelm 5y ago
    The sanctions started 2-3 years ago. 5 years ago I had to buy milk and diapers for my newborn girl in the black market because the govt destroyed the economy. So don't try to "explain" the situation to me, since I'm living it in the flesh.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
VincentEvans 5y ago
I don’t know about all these other countries, but I am Belarusian (though living abroad now) and it’s not some mysterious forces that are forcing us to change leadership. I don’t personally know anyone in my circle of Belarusian acquaintances who doesn’t think it should’ve been over for Lukashenko decades ago, and that he is a corrupt, self-dealing, mini-despot.
sergeykish 5y ago
You are so wrong about Ukraine. We live in a democratic country since 1991. Russian puppet used force to break down peaceful protests, this started escalation. He made attempt than to criminalize meetings [1], laws described as "draconian", "dictatorship", and was overthrown. There were democratic elections next month. And another since than. Different parties, different leaders. There is no civil war here, that's proxy war by Russia and everyone knows it. Russian leaders, Russian mercenaries, Russian weapon, Russian money, sometimes even Russian army. That's openly stated by Russian mercenary leaders. There is no reason for civil war. Everyone understands both Ukrainian and Russian. My native tongue is Russian, I live in Russian speaking city, and I am grateful to our army that protects us from Russian mercenaries. Occupied territories even by founders described as fascist states. Life is rough there. Population greatly decreased, a lot of refugees scattered around Ukraine, Russian speaking refugees, and everywhere they were welcomed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine

oytis 5y ago

Former Yugoslavia countries are doing pretty well actually. Genocides has been stopped, nations were able to establish their own countries, none of them returned to a dictatorship, all have democratically elected governments. Definitely better than before.

hulitu 5y ago
And the economy was destroyed. Definitely better than before.
- oytis 5y ago
  That's a bold claim. It was a communist dictatorship first - not sure if there is a reasonable way to compare GDP of a communist country with a normal country. Then there was an endless civil war - that's hardly good for economy too. Today these are quite comparable to other Eastern European countries. Croatia has a larger GDP per capita than Romania, Montenegro is somewhere in Turkey's league, Serbia is pretty poor, but still much better than Belarus and Ukraine.
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  You have things backwards. It was an economic decline that helped to motivate the collapse of Yugoslavia. If things in Yugoslavia had stayed as nice as in the 1960s and early 1970s -- the era of the vikendica and middle-class holidays in Bali, -- nationalist grievances might not have gained ground.
levosmetalo 5y ago
And still a big number of people that remember Yugoslavia will tell you they lived better, it was less crime, better education, less poverty, less inequality, more actual freedom. Btw, the war and genocides are a result of "the west" messing up there. If "the west" wasn't so eager to destroy Yugoslavia none of the war and genocides would happen.

powerapple 5y ago

The problem is that West is not helping them enough. Try finishing Iraq first before getting into other places. Building Iraq will take more time than bombing Iraq. It will need sending money instead of extracting oil. The problem is that, no, that's not what people want. You only want Sadam to go and don't care about anything else. The media, the NGO, the activists just move on to next target because it is always easy to pointing out a problem than fixing a problem.

pjc50 5y ago

Yugoslavia was not destroyed by the West, it was destroyed by Serbian nationalism and a set of ancient racial and religious hatreds.

bobthechef 5y ago
What ancient racial hatreds? The Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians are practically the same ethnic group! The difference is religious!
- Koshkin 5y ago
  To be fair, there's also Albanians (Kosovo). Still, not sure if 'racial' applies though.

caskstrength 5y ago

> - Ukraine - ... > All those countries were devastated by the "democratization". I'm not sure what you mean by "devastated". Software development jobs market is flourishing and my friends from other industries are not doing that bad either. Are you watching/reading Russian news sources by any chance?

levosmetalo 5y ago
It's a fucking war there, people are sent to war to kill and to get killed. GDP in Ukraine is ~3,5k$ per year. Your software developer friends are just outliers there.
- vincnetas 5y ago
  And i'm pretty sure that Donbas (separatist region) is receiving weapons not from the west. So in Ukrainian scenario i'm nor sure who has destabilised that region. By the way if you look at Ukrainian GDP over time it shows growth over past years.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Ukraine is a big country. When you look at the part close to Russia, yes, that is a warzone. When you look at places like Lviv... warzone??? Yeah right, you can just travel there buddy. Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU.
  - bobthechef 5y ago
    > Then you also get which country is doing the destabilization, and it sure as hell isn't the EU. That's a pretty simplistic view of how international politics and geostrategy is played. ATO expansion is undesirable to Russia and counter to agreements made between Russia and NATO. Russia has also been testing Western responses to its salami incursions beginning with Abkhazia and now Ukraine. The most it has gotten so far are sanctions (probably better than a full scale war at this point, but longer term this tactic may not succeed as Russia keeps chewing away). American meddling and financing of Euromaidan to topple Yanukovych and shake up Ukrainian politics is what opened the door to Russian pretexts to invade a country whose borders are not only an unstable Soviet construct (culturally speaking), but which plays an important territorial role in Russian security (control of Crimea allows control of the Sea of Azoz). You can probably add NordStream II to the mix, but that's more about gaining the upper hand over Central Europe in cooperation with Germany, hence the farce of EU unity, and in this case, where energy security and its geopolitical consequences are concerned. Thus the need for a Central European bloc that can withstand the grind of American/Western and Russian cultural and geopolitical tectonics. The Three Seas Initiative is ostensibly supposed to accomplish this, exploiting American backing, at least in the beginning. Belarus had historically been oriented toward this center of gravity until the 19th century. The Belarusian opposition certainly leans in the historical direction and the only other alternative is Russian vassalage. This Central European bloc incidentally would function like a buffer that would also serve the security interests of Europe in general.

jholman 5y ago

Japan? South Korea? Just brainstorming, here.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
The US propped up murderous dictators in both, more explicitly in South Korea but they also helped a war criminal entrench the LDP in Japan. Their shift to democracy happened much later and was not the result of a Western coup.
publicola1990 5y ago
Also Taiwan.

puszczyk 5y ago

What about Poland, the Baltic States, Czechia and Slovakia, Hungary? Also devastated? I’m sure we’d do much better with our friends in Moscow calling the shots.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
Calling the Revolutions of 1989 a "Western coup" seems wrong. And blindly stating it's better to be a puppet of the West than Russia is not really backed up by history and ignores the turmoil of any transition period.
b0rsuk 5y ago
Poland is currently circling the drain in toilet. The regime that gained power in 2015 did so with the help of Russia* and is covertly pro-Russian (watch their actions, not their words). It's no longer a democracy but an informational autocracy - like Venezuela, Russia, Ecuador, Peru, Malaysia, Hungary. * Marek Falenta imported coal from Russia and owes A LOT of money to Russian raw resource companies. The restaurants where the illegal wiretapping took place were set up by Russian raw resource companies. * "Obcym Alfabetem - Jak ludzie Kremla i PiS zagrali podsłuchami" (Grzegorz Rzeczkowski) * "Macierewicz i jego tajemnice" (Tomasz Piątek) * "Rydzyk i Przyjaciele" (Tomasz Piątek) * https://oko.press/pis-wciaz-rzadzi-bo-zyjemy-w-informacyjnej-autokracji/ (Anna Mierzyńska) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFydXPLCpL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFydXPLCpL8

rafaelm 5y ago

I can speak for Venezuela, and the corrupt murderer dictator party has been in power for just over 20 years. The country was completely ruined by the "corrupt murderer dictator" without any input from "the West".

unnouinceput 5y ago
I would not call US sanctions "without input from the West" https://www.state.gov/venezuela-related-sanctions/ https://www.state.gov/venezuela-related-sanctions/
- stadium 5y ago
  Pretty sure sanctions didn't start until after they nationalized (stole) the major foreign owned companies.
  - rafaelm 5y ago
    Not only that, they have been in power for over 20 years, with the highest oil prices ever. They've consistenly stolen all of the country's resources and destroyed the economy during all these years. The sanctions started 2-3 years ago.
- rafaelm 5y ago
  The sanctions started 2-3 years ago. 5 years ago I had to buy milk and diapers for my newborn girl in the black market because the govt destroyed the economy. So don't try to "explain" the situation to me, since I'm living it in the flesh.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

VincentEvans 5y ago

I don’t know about all these other countries, but I am Belarusian (though living abroad now) and it’s not some mysterious forces that are forcing us to change leadership. I don’t personally know anyone in my circle of Belarusian acquaintances who doesn’t think it should’ve been over for Lukashenko decades ago, and that he is a corrupt, self-dealing, mini-despot.

sergeykish 5y ago

You are so wrong about Ukraine. We live in a democratic country since 1991. Russian puppet used force to break down peaceful protests, this started escalation. He made attempt than to criminalize meetings [1], laws described as "draconian", "dictatorship", and was overthrown. There were democratic elections next month. And another since than. Different parties, different leaders. There is no civil war here, that's proxy war by Russia and everyone knows it. Russian leaders, Russian mercenaries, Russian weapon, Russian money, sometimes even Russian army. That's openly stated by Russian mercenary leaders. There is no reason for civil war. Everyone understands both Ukrainian and Russian. My native tongue is Russian, I live in Russian speaking city, and I am grateful to our army that protects us from Russian mercenaries. Occupied territories even by founders described as fascist states. Life is rough there. Population greatly decreased, a lot of refugees scattered around Ukraine, Russian speaking refugees, and everywhere they were welcomed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine