6 ms·

I too, found the anti-stalking features might hinder the use of AirTags for locating intentionally stolen items: (1) it has a removable battery, and also (2) "s

by zxcvgm 5y ago

I too, found the anti-stalking features might hinder the use of AirTags for locating intentionally stolen items: (1) it has a removable battery, and also (2) "someone can tap [the tag] with their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable the unknown AirTag". The anti-stalking feature also seems to contradict its privacy features: > Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking. But also, in the next sentence: > iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn’t with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over time. If an AirTag is supposed to be "anonymous", then how can a user be informed that this tag has been seen with them over an extended period? This would mean that there is a way to identify a particular AirTag in the first place.

randyrand 5y ago
tags rotate identifiers, but only every hour or so.
crazygringo 5y ago
AirTags are anonymous to other end users. Obviously Apple is internally maintaining an association between the AirTag's permanent identifier, and its current temporary signal identifier. This isn't E2EE or anything.
- mercutio2 5y ago
  Huh? It certainly is E2EE. "Whether attached to a handbag, keys, backpack, or other items, AirTag taps into the vast, global Find My network1 and can help locate a lost item, all while keeping location data private and anonymous with end-to-end encryption."
  - crazygringo 5y ago
    Is the E2EE applying to the Bluetooth ID's? I think it's referring to other aspects of the system -- this sentence is specifically referring to location data, not Bluetooth ID's. In any case, my point remains that obviously Apple has to be internally associating the Bluetooth ID's with owner ID's.
    - blep-arsh 5y ago
      They aren't. The tag generates and broadcasts a public key that is rotated every 15 minutes. A nearby "finder" device receives a broadcast, encrypts its location with the received key and sends it with a hash of the public key to Apple's anonymous location directory. The owner (who keeps the same key pair rotation algorithm running from the same seed key) can look up a bunch of key hashes for a range of 15-minute intervals and then fetch and decrypt location payloads. No device or account IDs are transmitted in the process.
      - crazygringo 5y ago
        Ah ha, got it, thanks -- I was definitely incorrect then. Wish I could edit my original comment to say "never mind" but the edit window passed.
  - omegaworks 5y ago
    Even with E2EE it makes sense that it is still possible to differentiate "registered, known" tags from "unknown" tags. Unknown tags won't reveal any information about who owns them, but they will still transmit on the same frequencies and with the same protocol as your air tags.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  "Your AirTag sends out a secure Bluetooth signal that can be detected by nearby devices in the Find My network. These devices send the location of your AirTag to iCloud — then you can go to the Find My app and see it on a map. The whole process is anonymous and encrypted to protect your privacy. And itʼs efficient, so thereʼs no need to worry about battery life or data usage." "Only you can see where your AirTag is. Your location data and history are never stored on the AirTag itself. Devices that relay the location of your AirTag also stay anonymous, and that location data is encrypted every step of the way. So not even Apple knows the location of your AirTag or the identity of the device that helps find it." So no, Apple actively doesn't want to know anything. I'd wager a guess that the airtag query system is using the same kind of method as the COVID tracker API.
  - 0x426577617265 5y ago
    This would also reduce the amount of received legal process from LE agencies, since data is not accessible by Apple.
novok 5y ago
Its private from 3rd parties, but not private from apple and whoever subpoenas them. Apply this principle to everything apple does and says about privacy and you see it everywhere in their products. Even more cynically, you can say it's private from their competitors.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- billyhoffman 5y ago
  They say in the AirTag video that "Everyone can participate without sharing their location with anyone, even Apple" https://youtu.be/JdBYVNuky1M?t=570 https://youtu.be/JdBYVNuky1M?t=570
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    So there's a way to track everyone's expensive kit and it doesn't require revealing one's identity. Ace.
- conradev 5y ago
  That is not true. All locations are encrypted with a public key before being uploaded to Apple's servers, and only the user's devices (which contain the private key) can decrypt the location.
- dhagz 5y ago
  Yep, Apple hasn't exactly hidden that's how they do privacy. They give you an identifier that makes sense to their systems, but won't make sense to other observers. They still track you, they just don't tie it to PII (I'm assuming there are ways to associate your "anonymous" ID to you though, since it's probably wrapped up with iCloud stuff somewhere - it would just take an arcane query of some sort).
- gleenn 5y ago
  I think it's a pretty reasonable response given malls and other places were scooping up bluetooth and wifi Mac addresses and using them to identify patrons. Sure, only Apple knows so it might possibly have some benefit to Apple and even less possibly a detriment to competitors, but it definitely increases privacy and I find that very compelling. Your iPhone/Android already knows where you are with location services enabled. I'd rather Apple keep everything as private as possible and it's not like their getting a huge data gain.
billyhoffman 5y ago
A local device like an iPhone has to know what AirTags are yours, since they have to guide to back to the beacon. If your iPhone notices beacons that appear at multiple locations, that aren't yours, it can detect that.
- angry_octet 5y ago
  It isn't yet clear how that detection occurs.
  - jonfw 5y ago
    Apple knows who you are. Apple knows which airtag you're near. You don't know which airtag you're near. It seems pretty clear that apple can use this information to tell if an airtag was placed in your car unbeknownst to you. Not sure what the mystery is.
dividuum 5y ago
Here’s a detailed protocol reverse engineering paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf My guess would be that you, as the tag owner, locally store the master beacon key and can use it to derive key required to decrypt received beacon payloads for your own tags. You can then filter out your own and approximate how many others (which you cannot link over time) you permanently see. If it is more than one most of the time, you’re probably tagged without your consent.
- mooman219 5y ago
  This seems like a problematic situation. In a vacuum I can see how they want to mitigate the stalking risks, but as of right now, unless you have a recently updated Apple device then, then you're completely ignored by the stalking mitigations. There's nothing official from Apple on the Google Play store that would mitigate that situation as well. This just seems like a low barrier to entry stalking tool on the extreme side of use cases for people Apple doesn't have business interests with.
  - katbyte 5y ago
    I presume the location info is only collected if its marked as "lost" - at which point if the tag connects to apples network via someones phone, it'll prompt them. If its marked "lost" and sending location with no iphone nearby and is moved it beeps. The stalking potential is greatly reduced if the victim has an android as the location will only be sent when its detected by an iphone.
    - angry_octet 5y ago
      The location information is updated whenever it is seen by an iDevice. The iDevice participates in this without its user's explicit permission or knowledge. If the stalkee has an android they will never know. Their position will be snitched by every iDevice they come near.
      - angry_octet 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
richardowright 5y ago
When the ID changes on the tag, a nearby device can link the two id's together since they're in the same 'position' (i.e. id x was at y position and now id z is there, so id x = id y). However, someone who is not there wouldn't be able to link those ID's together. This gets you the privacy feature and the anti-stalking feature. (The anti-stalking feature likely wouldn't need a perfect series of matches; if you have a good chain of them, you'd have good confidence.)

by zxcvgm 5y ago

randyrand 5y ago

tags rotate identifiers, but only every hour or so.

crazygringo 5y ago

AirTags are anonymous to other end users. Obviously Apple is internally maintaining an association between the AirTag's permanent identifier, and its current temporary signal identifier. This isn't E2EE or anything.

mercutio2 5y ago
Huh? It certainly is E2EE. "Whether attached to a handbag, keys, backpack, or other items, AirTag taps into the vast, global Find My network1 and can help locate a lost item, all while keeping location data private and anonymous with end-to-end encryption."
- crazygringo 5y ago
  Is the E2EE applying to the Bluetooth ID's? I think it's referring to other aspects of the system -- this sentence is specifically referring to location data, not Bluetooth ID's. In any case, my point remains that obviously Apple has to be internally associating the Bluetooth ID's with owner ID's.
  - blep-arsh 5y ago
    They aren't. The tag generates and broadcasts a public key that is rotated every 15 minutes. A nearby "finder" device receives a broadcast, encrypts its location with the received key and sends it with a hash of the public key to Apple's anonymous location directory. The owner (who keeps the same key pair rotation algorithm running from the same seed key) can look up a bunch of key hashes for a range of 15-minute intervals and then fetch and decrypt location payloads. No device or account IDs are transmitted in the process.
    - crazygringo 5y ago
      Ah ha, got it, thanks -- I was definitely incorrect then. Wish I could edit my original comment to say "never mind" but the edit window passed.
- omegaworks 5y ago
  Even with E2EE it makes sense that it is still possible to differentiate "registered, known" tags from "unknown" tags. Unknown tags won't reveal any information about who owns them, but they will still transmit on the same frequencies and with the same protocol as your air tags.
theshrike79 5y ago
"Your AirTag sends out a secure Bluetooth signal that can be detected by nearby devices in the Find My network. These devices send the location of your AirTag to iCloud — then you can go to the Find My app and see it on a map. The whole process is anonymous and encrypted to protect your privacy. And itʼs efficient, so thereʼs no need to worry about battery life or data usage." "Only you can see where your AirTag is. Your location data and history are never stored on the AirTag itself. Devices that relay the location of your AirTag also stay anonymous, and that location data is encrypted every step of the way. So not even Apple knows the location of your AirTag or the identity of the device that helps find it." So no, Apple actively doesn't want to know anything. I'd wager a guess that the airtag query system is using the same kind of method as the COVID tracker API.
- 0x426577617265 5y ago
  This would also reduce the amount of received legal process from LE agencies, since data is not accessible by Apple.

novok 5y ago

Its private from 3rd parties, but not private from apple and whoever subpoenas them. Apply this principle to everything apple does and says about privacy and you see it everywhere in their products. Even more cynically, you can say it's private from their competitors.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
billyhoffman 5y ago
They say in the AirTag video that "Everyone can participate without sharing their location with anyone, even Apple" https://youtu.be/JdBYVNuky1M?t=570 https://youtu.be/JdBYVNuky1M?t=570
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  So there's a way to track everyone's expensive kit and it doesn't require revealing one's identity. Ace.
conradev 5y ago
That is not true. All locations are encrypted with a public key before being uploaded to Apple's servers, and only the user's devices (which contain the private key) can decrypt the location.
dhagz 5y ago
Yep, Apple hasn't exactly hidden that's how they do privacy. They give you an identifier that makes sense to their systems, but won't make sense to other observers. They still track you, they just don't tie it to PII (I'm assuming there are ways to associate your "anonymous" ID to you though, since it's probably wrapped up with iCloud stuff somewhere - it would just take an arcane query of some sort).
gleenn 5y ago
I think it's a pretty reasonable response given malls and other places were scooping up bluetooth and wifi Mac addresses and using them to identify patrons. Sure, only Apple knows so it might possibly have some benefit to Apple and even less possibly a detriment to competitors, but it definitely increases privacy and I find that very compelling. Your iPhone/Android already knows where you are with location services enabled. I'd rather Apple keep everything as private as possible and it's not like their getting a huge data gain.

billyhoffman 5y ago

A local device like an iPhone has to know what AirTags are yours, since they have to guide to back to the beacon. If your iPhone notices beacons that appear at multiple locations, that aren't yours, it can detect that.

angry_octet 5y ago
It isn't yet clear how that detection occurs.
- jonfw 5y ago
  Apple knows who you are. Apple knows which airtag you're near. You don't know which airtag you're near. It seems pretty clear that apple can use this information to tell if an airtag was placed in your car unbeknownst to you. Not sure what the mystery is.

dividuum 5y ago

Here’s a detailed protocol reverse engineering paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf My guess would be that you, as the tag owner, locally store the master beacon key and can use it to derive key required to decrypt received beacon payloads for your own tags. You can then filter out your own and approximate how many others (which you cannot link over time) you permanently see. If it is more than one most of the time, you’re probably tagged without your consent.

mooman219 5y ago
This seems like a problematic situation. In a vacuum I can see how they want to mitigate the stalking risks, but as of right now, unless you have a recently updated Apple device then, then you're completely ignored by the stalking mitigations. There's nothing official from Apple on the Google Play store that would mitigate that situation as well. This just seems like a low barrier to entry stalking tool on the extreme side of use cases for people Apple doesn't have business interests with.
- katbyte 5y ago
  I presume the location info is only collected if its marked as "lost" - at which point if the tag connects to apples network via someones phone, it'll prompt them. If its marked "lost" and sending location with no iphone nearby and is moved it beeps. The stalking potential is greatly reduced if the victim has an android as the location will only be sent when its detected by an iphone.
  - angry_octet 5y ago
    The location information is updated whenever it is seen by an iDevice. The iDevice participates in this without its user's explicit permission or knowledge. If the stalkee has an android they will never know. Their position will be snitched by every iDevice they come near.
    - angry_octet 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

richardowright 5y ago

When the ID changes on the tag, a nearby device can link the two id's together since they're in the same 'position' (i.e. id x was at y position and now id z is there, so id x = id y). However, someone who is not there wouldn't be able to link those ID's together. This gets you the privacy feature and the anti-stalking feature. (The anti-stalking feature likely wouldn't need a perfect series of matches; if you have a good chain of them, you'd have good confidence.)