7 ms·

> You are an IBM employee 100% of the time. This is simply illegal. I am surprised at how the HN community is acquiescing to this throwback claim and isn't ch

> You are an IBM employee 100% of the time. This is simply illegal. I am surprised at how the HN community is acquiescing to this throwback claim and isn't challenging it with righteous indignation. It crosses numerous legal, ethical and historic boundaries and should deeply taint the IBM brand for anyone reading it.

fred_is_fred 6y ago
I think unfortunately you are mistaken. Lots of large US companies do this and it's contractual - you sign a paper that they own any IP you create even on your own time.
- waffletower 6y ago
  The statement goes far beyond any contractual obligation. But I agree, it is a mistake to sign away all intellectual property rights and such a contract is legally binding. It isn't clear that such a contract exists here.
- skrtskrt 6y ago
  All the ones I have signed only claim IP directly related to the company's business model. Obviously that gets trickier if the company is like, Microsoft which at least has tried to make every kind of software imaginable. But most companies do pretty much one thing, and I am free to develop whatever else besides that on my own time. It seems reasonable.
- tankenmate 6y ago
  CALIFORNIA CODES, LABOR CODE SECTION 2870-2872 " 2870 (a) Any provision in an employment agreement stating that an employee should assign any of his rights in an invention to his employer shall not apply to an invention which the employee develops totally on his time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information except for the inventions which: 2871 Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or anticipated research or development of the employer 2872 Result from any work done by the employee for the employer. " In the state of California clauses assigning _all_ IP to the employer in an employment contract are not legal, and hence unenforceable.
  - tankenmate 6y ago
    And further, here is the relevant legislation in other states; Delaware 19 Del.C. s 805 Illinois 765 I.L.C.S. 1060/2 Kansas K.S.A. 44-130 Minnesota M.S.A. 181.78 North Carolina G.S. s 66-57.1 Washington RCWA 49.44.140, 150 Utah UT ST s 34-39-1, 2, 3
  - lolinder 6y ago
    That doesn't apply here because the work in question is on an IBM driver, so the exceptions clearly apply.
  - tablespoon 6y ago
    > 2871 Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or anticipated research or development of the employer I don't know where this guy is based, but his IBM email address is @linux.ibm.com, so arguably his work on the Linux kernel may be conceived as "relating to the employer's business."
  - fred_is_fred 6y ago
    Okay 49 other states?
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    > 2871 Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or anticipated research or development of the employer IMO this is the gray area. Could IBM make a reasonable case that this kernel work is related to / close to / similar to what IBM is doing? Could they have learned something, even just a rejected -- but proprietary -- approach from an internal project... that kinda ends up on the kernel? I agree with the consensus that IBM is in the wrong here... but lawyers might be able to prove otherwise.
- wheaties 6y ago
  This is completely legal in many states, such as NY.
- suifbwish 6y ago
  What kind of a dummy would work for a company that makes you sign that.
  - amw 6y ago
    The kind of dummy who enjoys having things like rent, food and healthcare.
    - deirdresm 6y ago
      I'm reminded of a Berkeley CA bumper sticker: Visualize Rent
    - suifbwish 6y ago
      But not doing enough research to learn that there are a ton of other jobs out there that may as much or more than the dishonest scammer job pays.
      - johnnyanmac 6y ago
        If they offer a high salary and you have no plans to self-develop hobby projects on the side, then that may not be a breaking factor. In any case, these laws are hard to enforce unless you are working on company hardware. And people who really care may sign off existing projects to get around this.
  - volta83 6y ago
    Have you checked how many employees IBM has ?
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I always search for these paragraphs and mark them out, and let them know that I marked out the sections. They're free to redraft them or leave the marked up version. Otherwise it's time to hit the road.
docmars 6y ago
I believe you, but what makes this illegal? I'm not familiar with the laws or protections around this.
- mratsim 6y ago
  As a human being you are entitled to personal time.
  - stinkytaco 6y ago
    > As a human being you are entitled to personal time. I wonder about this in 2021. Social media and ubiquitous recording has changed what seems like an obvious truth into something more complex. A company employee badmouthing customers? A police officer who posts something racist? Attending a political demonstration? An employee who's working on a competing product in their spare time? I don't have answers to these, but somewhere, the line became blurry.
    - Viliam1234 6y ago
      > somewhere, the line became blurry Yeah, I think it's mainly internet, specifically because: * the things that you posted during your free time remain visible also during your work time; * websites optimize for engagement and ad views, so if you happen to write something controversial, they will try to show it to as many people as possible; * many websites require you to use your real name, making things easier to connect to your real-life identity and employers (also to match across websites); * the "social networks" encourage you to discuss various unrelated topics on the same website under the same account, again making it easier to connect things together. Compare it with our social life before internet: * if you say something in a pub, your boss is not there; * most of the things you say, people will quickly forget; * if someone quotes you, you can deny it; * a social norm against snitching (if someone reports on what you said among your friends to your boss, most likely the friends will shun that person). Seems to me that most of these bad things are driven by advertising -- the same rules that make it easier for advertisers to connect all dots about your life, also make it easy for your boss, and for someone who wants to report on you to your boss. Also, seems to me that Google and Facebook are the major forces behind this trend -- most other websites either don't feel entitled to know and display my real name, or they are easy to ignore.
mathattack 6y ago
Welcome to IBM. It’s an old school worldview.
kitd 6y ago
I don't think it's meant literally. Only that you "represent" IBM all the time, even if not technically working for them. This is a fairly common stance AIUI.
- michaelt 6y ago
  It's a common stance, just unpopular with workers. Very popular with employers, of course: You get to avoid the minor risk of them embarrassing you; you reduce their job market value by preventing them from having a portfolio or any public profile; you remove non-work distractions from their free time; and you get to vacuum up any IP they generate outside of work hours. So naturally, employers want to normalise the idea.
  - setr 6y ago
    >you remove non-work distractions from their free time I don't think the narrative is usually "you can't work on anything else"; it's that you can't claim to have two jobs. >you reduce their job market value by preventing them from having a portfolio or any public profile It's not clear to me that "setr@gmail.com" vs "setr@ibm.com" changes the equation on portfolio lookup by any significant degree. >you get to vacuum up any IP they generate outside of work hours This seems to me the only real significant part of the equation, and by far the dangerous one -- a benevolent company will generally not care if your side projects are unrelated to you main project, but ultimately the decision is entirely their's, leaving a gaping hole of largely unnecessary risk. The justification however is really that it becomes murky really quickly -- your generated IP is usually in the same vein as what you do at work (you work at what you're good at, and you presumably need to be good at X to produce new IP in it). So it quickly becomes questionable how much of that IP was really just you pulling on resources/knowledge/equipment from your working environment.
    - michaelt 6y ago
      > I don't think the narrative is usually "you can't work on anything else"; it's that you can't claim to have two jobs. In the case we're talking about, the employee was told they can't work on the kernel in their free time. Clearly not a second job. > It's not clear to me that "setr@gmail.com" vs "setr@ibm.com" changes the equation on portfolio lookup by any significant degree. In this case, they were told they couldn't work on the kernel even under their personal e-mail address - and to remove the credit for work they'd already done. Seems pretty clear-cut to me?
alberth 6y ago
I posted this below but will post it again ... Before you rail on how wrong this is for a company to do, please read this article by Joel on the subject. This is a super difficult topic for corporations that most don't realize and the article below walks through those dynamics. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...
- caminante 6y ago
  I don't think the JoelOnSoftware article is that informative for this situation. The IBM employee is being forced to represent IBM under his official email alias regardless of whether the IBM employee acknowledges IBM owns his work product around the clock.
- jupp0r 6y ago
  You are completely missing the point. Nobody forces IBM to act this way. Sure they can - legally. It's still morally wrong.
- bjornsing 6y ago
  TLDR: Owner of tech company thinks he should own all of his employees’ intellectual output. Big surprise. Huge.
tester756 6y ago
You're being employed by IBM for 100% of the time, but you're working 40h of your time. When it's weekend, then you aren't stopping being employed by your company, aren't you? edit. is this whole thread some peak of HN? when you're leaving your Google office, then you aren't magically stopping being Googler. Same way with universities - if you attend e.g Harvard and then do a lot of shit even outside the school, then you should expect to be kicked or punished at best. You're more or less representing them.
- type0 6y ago
  > You're being employed by IBM for 100% of the time, but you're working 40h of your time Then they should pay 168 hours / week and not 40 > You're more or less representing them. No you don't
  - tester756 6y ago
    >Then they should pay 168 hours / week and not 40 You just basically rewrite what guy that I responded to wrote, nothing more. You agreed to get $your_salary for X hours of work and being connected to that company. If you worked in some industry like porn or at facebook, then somebody may use it against you and I don't think saying "No I didn't work for them" is going to work for ya >No you don't Then why shitton of Googler and other people uses "opinions are mine"? because they're Googlers even outside office hours Maybe you're not representing them "directly", but you definitely do indirectly.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    Most software engineers in the US are paid by the day, not the hour.
- sdevonoes 6y ago
  > is this whole thread some peak of HN? when you're leaving your Google office, then you aren't magically stopping being Googler. The hell means 'being Googler'? I'm not a Xer because I'm employed at X. Wake up.
  - 6y ago
moftz 6y ago
If you are salaried, your 40 hours a week is just the minimum. Some employers respect the 40 hours, some expect you to work well past that number until the job is done.
- SubiculumCode 6y ago
  That does not mean they can order you around like a slave. What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot eat at a particular restaurant, or eat pasta? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot sleep on a spring mattress? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot walk a dog on the weekend? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he can invest in a mutual fund? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot help his neighbor in his garden? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot pee while standing? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot get a divorce? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot help his dad with a computer problem? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot answer a stack overflow query?
  - matt74827289 6y ago
    Unfortunately in at will employment states in the USA, a company could fire you for most of those things if they wanted to and it would be within their rights to do so. As long as they are not discriminating against a protected class they can fire you for almost anything.
    - SubiculumCode 6y ago
      I would like to see them try to make that stick in court with an example like, we don't allow our employees to eat chicken or they are fired.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  The only place I've seen that is cash strapped and personnel short startups.
dsibm33 6y ago
> You are an IBM employee 100% of the time. This seems very much the case sadly ... a friend of mine is working as a software engineer at IBM (in Europe) and they indeed are not allowed to use their personal accounts to make open source contributions in their spare time. They would have to ask IBM legal to sign off on everything. Sad life.
- SandyAndyPerth 6y ago
  That was also the case for CSIRO, Australia's largest government scientific organisation, when I worked there years ago. We had a lot of open source collaboration products but they were tightly managed and approved. Legal were so backlogged that approval for anything other than a strategic project was impossible. I was not allowed to submit work to unapproved projects, other than my personal stuff I'd listed as my own IP on being hired. It's usually about IP protection ahead of brand protection.
- zwaps 6y ago
  This must be illegal in many places in Europe, though.
shermozle 6y ago
Sounds like a statement you could use to invoice for a whole lot of overtime payment.

fred_is_fred 6y ago

I think unfortunately you are mistaken. Lots of large US companies do this and it's contractual - you sign a paper that they own any IP you create even on your own time.

waffletower 6y ago
The statement goes far beyond any contractual obligation. But I agree, it is a mistake to sign away all intellectual property rights and such a contract is legally binding. It isn't clear that such a contract exists here.
skrtskrt 6y ago
All the ones I have signed only claim IP directly related to the company's business model. Obviously that gets trickier if the company is like, Microsoft which at least has tried to make every kind of software imaginable. But most companies do pretty much one thing, and I am free to develop whatever else besides that on my own time. It seems reasonable.
tankenmate 6y ago
CALIFORNIA CODES, LABOR CODE SECTION 2870-2872 " 2870 (a) Any provision in an employment agreement stating that an employee should assign any of his rights in an invention to his employer shall not apply to an invention which the employee develops totally on his time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information except for the inventions which: 2871 Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or anticipated research or development of the employer 2872 Result from any work done by the employee for the employer. " In the state of California clauses assigning _all_ IP to the employer in an employment contract are not legal, and hence unenforceable.
- tankenmate 6y ago
  And further, here is the relevant legislation in other states; Delaware 19 Del.C. s 805 Illinois 765 I.L.C.S. 1060/2 Kansas K.S.A. 44-130 Minnesota M.S.A. 181.78 North Carolina G.S. s 66-57.1 Washington RCWA 49.44.140, 150 Utah UT ST s 34-39-1, 2, 3
- lolinder 6y ago
  That doesn't apply here because the work in question is on an IBM driver, so the exceptions clearly apply.
- tablespoon 6y ago
  > 2871 Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or anticipated research or development of the employer I don't know where this guy is based, but his IBM email address is @linux.ibm.com, so arguably his work on the Linux kernel may be conceived as "relating to the employer's business."
- fred_is_fred 6y ago
  Okay 49 other states?
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > 2871 Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or anticipated research or development of the employer IMO this is the gray area. Could IBM make a reasonable case that this kernel work is related to / close to / similar to what IBM is doing? Could they have learned something, even just a rejected -- but proprietary -- approach from an internal project... that kinda ends up on the kernel? I agree with the consensus that IBM is in the wrong here... but lawyers might be able to prove otherwise.
wheaties 6y ago
This is completely legal in many states, such as NY.
suifbwish 6y ago
What kind of a dummy would work for a company that makes you sign that.
- amw 6y ago
  The kind of dummy who enjoys having things like rent, food and healthcare.
  - deirdresm 6y ago
    I'm reminded of a Berkeley CA bumper sticker: Visualize Rent
  - suifbwish 6y ago
    But not doing enough research to learn that there are a ton of other jobs out there that may as much or more than the dishonest scammer job pays.
    - johnnyanmac 6y ago
      If they offer a high salary and you have no plans to self-develop hobby projects on the side, then that may not be a breaking factor. In any case, these laws are hard to enforce unless you are working on company hardware. And people who really care may sign off existing projects to get around this.
- volta83 6y ago
  Have you checked how many employees IBM has ?
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I always search for these paragraphs and mark them out, and let them know that I marked out the sections. They're free to redraft them or leave the marked up version. Otherwise it's time to hit the road.

docmars 6y ago

I believe you, but what makes this illegal? I'm not familiar with the laws or protections around this.

mratsim 6y ago
As a human being you are entitled to personal time.
- stinkytaco 6y ago
  > As a human being you are entitled to personal time. I wonder about this in 2021. Social media and ubiquitous recording has changed what seems like an obvious truth into something more complex. A company employee badmouthing customers? A police officer who posts something racist? Attending a political demonstration? An employee who's working on a competing product in their spare time? I don't have answers to these, but somewhere, the line became blurry.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    > somewhere, the line became blurry Yeah, I think it's mainly internet, specifically because: * the things that you posted during your free time remain visible also during your work time; * websites optimize for engagement and ad views, so if you happen to write something controversial, they will try to show it to as many people as possible; * many websites require you to use your real name, making things easier to connect to your real-life identity and employers (also to match across websites); * the "social networks" encourage you to discuss various unrelated topics on the same website under the same account, again making it easier to connect things together. Compare it with our social life before internet: * if you say something in a pub, your boss is not there; * most of the things you say, people will quickly forget; * if someone quotes you, you can deny it; * a social norm against snitching (if someone reports on what you said among your friends to your boss, most likely the friends will shun that person). Seems to me that most of these bad things are driven by advertising -- the same rules that make it easier for advertisers to connect all dots about your life, also make it easy for your boss, and for someone who wants to report on you to your boss. Also, seems to me that Google and Facebook are the major forces behind this trend -- most other websites either don't feel entitled to know and display my real name, or they are easy to ignore.

mathattack 6y ago

Welcome to IBM. It’s an old school worldview.

kitd 6y ago

I don't think it's meant literally. Only that you "represent" IBM all the time, even if not technically working for them. This is a fairly common stance AIUI.

michaelt 6y ago
It's a common stance, just unpopular with workers. Very popular with employers, of course: You get to avoid the minor risk of them embarrassing you; you reduce their job market value by preventing them from having a portfolio or any public profile; you remove non-work distractions from their free time; and you get to vacuum up any IP they generate outside of work hours. So naturally, employers want to normalise the idea.
- setr 6y ago
  >you remove non-work distractions from their free time I don't think the narrative is usually "you can't work on anything else"; it's that you can't claim to have two jobs. >you reduce their job market value by preventing them from having a portfolio or any public profile It's not clear to me that "setr@gmail.com" vs "setr@ibm.com" changes the equation on portfolio lookup by any significant degree. >you get to vacuum up any IP they generate outside of work hours This seems to me the only real significant part of the equation, and by far the dangerous one -- a benevolent company will generally not care if your side projects are unrelated to you main project, but ultimately the decision is entirely their's, leaving a gaping hole of largely unnecessary risk. The justification however is really that it becomes murky really quickly -- your generated IP is usually in the same vein as what you do at work (you work at what you're good at, and you presumably need to be good at X to produce new IP in it). So it quickly becomes questionable how much of that IP was really just you pulling on resources/knowledge/equipment from your working environment.
  - michaelt 6y ago
    > I don't think the narrative is usually "you can't work on anything else"; it's that you can't claim to have two jobs. In the case we're talking about, the employee was told they can't work on the kernel in their free time. Clearly not a second job. > It's not clear to me that "setr@gmail.com" vs "setr@ibm.com" changes the equation on portfolio lookup by any significant degree. In this case, they were told they couldn't work on the kernel even under their personal e-mail address - and to remove the credit for work they'd already done. Seems pretty clear-cut to me?

alberth 6y ago

I posted this below but will post it again ... Before you rail on how wrong this is for a company to do, please read this article by Joel on the subject. This is a super difficult topic for corporations that most don't realize and the article below walks through those dynamics. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...

caminante 6y ago
I don't think the JoelOnSoftware article is that informative for this situation. The IBM employee is being forced to represent IBM under his official email alias regardless of whether the IBM employee acknowledges IBM owns his work product around the clock.
jupp0r 6y ago
You are completely missing the point. Nobody forces IBM to act this way. Sure they can - legally. It's still morally wrong.
bjornsing 6y ago
TLDR: Owner of tech company thinks he should own all of his employees’ intellectual output. Big surprise. Huge.

tester756 6y ago

You're being employed by IBM for 100% of the time, but you're working 40h of your time. When it's weekend, then you aren't stopping being employed by your company, aren't you? edit. is this whole thread some peak of HN? when you're leaving your Google office, then you aren't magically stopping being Googler. Same way with universities - if you attend e.g Harvard and then do a lot of shit even outside the school, then you should expect to be kicked or punished at best. You're more or less representing them.

type0 6y ago
> You're being employed by IBM for 100% of the time, but you're working 40h of your time Then they should pay 168 hours / week and not 40 > You're more or less representing them. No you don't
- tester756 6y ago
  >Then they should pay 168 hours / week and not 40 You just basically rewrite what guy that I responded to wrote, nothing more. You agreed to get $your_salary for X hours of work and being connected to that company. If you worked in some industry like porn or at facebook, then somebody may use it against you and I don't think saying "No I didn't work for them" is going to work for ya >No you don't Then why shitton of Googler and other people uses "opinions are mine"? because they're Googlers even outside office hours Maybe you're not representing them "directly", but you definitely do indirectly.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  Most software engineers in the US are paid by the day, not the hour.
sdevonoes 6y ago
> is this whole thread some peak of HN? when you're leaving your Google office, then you aren't magically stopping being Googler. The hell means 'being Googler'? I'm not a Xer because I'm employed at X. Wake up.
- 6y ago

moftz 6y ago

If you are salaried, your 40 hours a week is just the minimum. Some employers respect the 40 hours, some expect you to work well past that number until the job is done.

SubiculumCode 6y ago
That does not mean they can order you around like a slave. What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot eat at a particular restaurant, or eat pasta? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot sleep on a spring mattress? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot walk a dog on the weekend? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he can invest in a mutual fund? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot help his neighbor in his garden? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot pee while standing? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot get a divorce? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot help his dad with a computer problem? What if IBM tells him that as an IBM employee he cannot answer a stack overflow query?
- matt74827289 6y ago
  Unfortunately in at will employment states in the USA, a company could fire you for most of those things if they wanted to and it would be within their rights to do so. As long as they are not discriminating against a protected class they can fire you for almost anything.
  - SubiculumCode 6y ago
    I would like to see them try to make that stick in court with an example like, we don't allow our employees to eat chicken or they are fired.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
The only place I've seen that is cash strapped and personnel short startups.

dsibm33 6y ago

> You are an IBM employee 100% of the time. This seems very much the case sadly ... a friend of mine is working as a software engineer at IBM (in Europe) and they indeed are not allowed to use their personal accounts to make open source contributions in their spare time. They would have to ask IBM legal to sign off on everything. Sad life.

SandyAndyPerth 6y ago
That was also the case for CSIRO, Australia's largest government scientific organisation, when I worked there years ago. We had a lot of open source collaboration products but they were tightly managed and approved. Legal were so backlogged that approval for anything other than a strategic project was impossible. I was not allowed to submit work to unapproved projects, other than my personal stuff I'd listed as my own IP on being hired. It's usually about IP protection ahead of brand protection.
zwaps 6y ago
This must be illegal in many places in Europe, though.

shermozle 6y ago

Sounds like a statement you could use to invoice for a whole lot of overtime payment.