9 ms·

Pictures reveal the isolated lives of Japan’s social recluses (2018)

78 points by altStoner 5y ago

jchw 5y ago
Archive link: https://archive.is/P8Ym2 https://archive.is/P8Ym2 There is a nag that tries to force you to enter your e-mail mid-way down the page.
- HiroshiSan 5y ago
  you can also use uBlock Origin to zap the elements.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    Can you get it to successfully work on this page? Zapping elements gets rid of the pop-up, but also makes scrolling impossible.
    - enjoyyourlife 5y ago
      nationalgeographic.com##html:style(height:100%!important;overflow:scroll!important;position: static !important) nationalgeographic.com##body:style(height:100%!important;overflow:scroll!important;position: static !important)
      - Ansil849 5y ago
        I added this to my custom filter list, and it did not get rid of the sign-up pop-up.
        enjoyyourlife 5y ago
        You can use the zapper tool for that
        Ansil849 5y ago
        Like I said in this thread, I tried and could not get it working. I am curious how other people got it working, since we are using the same tool and seeing the same webpage.
    - HiroshiSan 5y ago
      Yes I was able to get it to successfully work, you just have to keep zapping elements until the page displays properly. This also works on instagram if you're viewing without an account, though they seem to shadowban ip's now as I can't view accounts until after a few days.
      - Ansil849 5y ago
        Could you please paste your custom filter rules for it? I tried the keep-zapping approach, and eventually got rid of the pop-ups, but then was unable to actually scroll through the page and read the article.
- nyx_ 5y ago
  I fed it a Mailinator address and it was happy to let me keep reading.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Reader mode gets around it.
sneak 5y ago
It's a bit interesting that people see this as something that needs "fixing". Is it because it's a psychological disorder? Is it because the parents don't want the financial burden? The pandemic has certainly recently shown me the upsides of withdrawing totally from society. It's not for me (I'm antisocial, not asocial) but I can see why some would prefer it.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > Is it because the parents don't want the financial burden? In the article they mention that the parents pay $8K per year or more for this service.
  - ilaksh 5y ago
    The parents are paying for everything. Food, housing, etc. To me it seems like this is basically an extreme on a spectrum of people who are struggling. I have always had difficulty socializing and there were years where I lived with my parents and struggled to find an adequate job. For at least two years I had completely given up. And with my poor self-confidence and social skills, I would not often attempt to socialize then or now. But your income is a huge aspect of your identity in this world. Without any income or a good one, it is going to be hard for anyone to be confident around other people. And with no income for an extended period, that type of shame will make you want to avoid people altogether. Even the last several years where I have had income from online contract programming, I have basically been a hermit and rarely attempt socializing. I feel that honestly part of it is just that I don't think people are comfortable around me. But a big issue is the poor income and lack of self-confidence that comes with that. And reinforcing this stuff are my health issues that have caused me years ago to abandon the idea of high-paid stressful jobs. I have not considered a job with a commute in many years. I feel like what I need is an income about four to six times what seems comfortable for me to maintain. Then I can get out of this financial hole, move back to the United States, pay for good health insurance and hopefully resolve my health issue, and hold my head up high as a property owner. I am not dependent on other people or totally isolated, but I do avoid socializing. My dream is to design, build, and manufacturer robots, so I am experimenting with computer vision. What I do not want to do and don't think I could do even if I tried, is a hardcore 9-5 job working for someone else on projects that are a total waste of time. I would rather continue to be poor. And I will just mention one other thing. Appearance may also factor into this sometimes. Notice that one of the men pictured has mixed blood. That bit of difference that he has could be just one more factor contributing to his isolation. For me, I am quite self-conscious and often am not even sure if my facial asymmetry is in the normal range.
durnygbur 5y ago
The basic needs of a man until his late 30s are quite straightforward. If there is no chance for sex, and professional endeavours deliver more stress than anything else, then why bother with the rest? Saying this from completely different perspective - of a native citizen of less developed EU country, the pandemic measures and shutdowns almost haven't changed my lifestyle.
- mwfunk 5y ago
  If those are the only things that makes someone happy (it's not necessarily; all people are different, but let's say those are the basic needs at work here), and they aren't getting either of those things, then they can either give up become shut-ins and stay on that trajectory, or they can do everything they can to figure out how become the kind of person they want to be, or at least become a happier or wiser person. Those are the options, perpetually keep trying to become a better version of one's self more capable of happiness (and maybe failing, and probably having some miserable experiences on the way), or give up (and definitely fail, 100% of the time, right out of the gate). Or suicide I guess, but giving up is basically suicide with an exceptionally long and pointless epilogue. Once somebody gives up, from that point on they are no longer victims but the cause of their own problems. It sucks and it's not fair, but adult life can really suck and is definitely not fair. We only get one shot at it so might as well go out trying to do best we can.
  - kiba 5y ago
    Saying someone is responsible for themselves really doesn't help them. It's like telling a depressed person that they should be happy. They need help. Because in the end, we're all interdependent and dependent on each other. I had to tell myself that I am the hero or villain of my own story after some help. Still, it's an absolutely painful journey sometime.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    The article's description of cultural pressures on young men seems crushing. One must work obscene hours, never lose face, represent the family at all times, and support a family on one salary.
kjrose 5y ago
"According to him, he is a great man and could do extraordinary things, but he does not always try his best" This is right here probably a major explanation for the whole phenomena. I have seen this exact attitude with individuals who are in their 30s and living with their parents. Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth but the world isn't rewarding them for the little work they do as much as they think it's worth. So, since their whole worldview cannot be reconciled with how they are treated outside their family, it makes sense to retreat to that very same safe place as before. He is right he could do extraordinary things, but first he needs to work hard to get there.
- heterodoxxed 5y ago
  > Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth Is there an abundance of this in Japanese culture that I wasn't aware of?
  - jmchuster 5y ago
    Probably just an abundance of this in humans in general? A lovely John Steinbeck paraphrase/misquote from another thread: "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
    - kjrose 5y ago
      We live in an age of underappreciated princes with no fiefdoms.
- davesque 5y ago
  Maybe? Seems like that's assuming a lot about a person's life.
- saeranv 5y ago
  I noticed this too, because it seemed to be a common theme for many of the men, and also, pretty relatable. Who doesn't think of themselves as capable of "extraordinary things"? If they could recontextualize failure as adversity: a key part of learning, and making progress, the failure could build resilience instead of compounding to a point where they feel like they are better off giving up and isolating.
ForrestN 5y ago
Brief photo theory interlude: beware of rhetoric about photographs "revealing" or "exploring" things. These photographs are telling a story, and have all the subjectivities and editing that we take for granted in written works. They are not empirical evidence, they are works made to represent and persuade. When you see something framed this way, proceed skeptically!
- ralusek 5y ago
  This has Big Hikikomori written all over it.
- pm90 5y ago
  Probably a good idea to be skeptical of everything you read. But often that’s not possible.
- dvh 5y ago
  Must be a conspiracy.
- colineartheta 5y ago
  Wow, you’ve discovered photojournalism! Incredible!
- psychomugs 5y ago
  “Let’s face it. What do you know from a photograph? They don’t have narrative ability. You talk about a cow jumping, you don’t know if it’s going up or down from the picture.” - Garry Winogrand Not implying that I agree, but through a very reductionist lens from one of the medium's greats, photographs are nothing more than light on a flat medium. Whatever meaning we imbue is an interpretation.
Bukhmanizer 5y ago
I’m glad the article mostly restrains itself from the “wacky Japan” angle, and states pretty flat out that a “rental sister” is pretty analogous to the role of a social worker. It’s weird that people marvel over “host” and “hostess” clubs in Japan, when I know of many restaurants in the US and Canada, where the main draw is that a pretty girl/guy will be nice to you for your time there. Is it the exact same thing? No. But it’s clearly serving the same niche. The difference seems to be that in Japan, the exchange of social services (in the broadest sense) are pretty direct and straightforward. In the west, there’s a taboo about paying for social benefits, so people have to pretend they actually want to spend $20 on a crappy burger that happens to be served by an attractive woman.
- Bukhmanizer 5y ago
  Cont. My theory is that we go through this little dance because we can’t stand to admit that there’s anything structurally wrong with our society. If people feel lonely, or unsupported by their community, then well, it just means they’re broken, and should go through years of expensive and intensive therapy. Otherwise, just deal with it and get back to work. I’m not saying we all need to join communes or anything, but explicit recognition of the problem at hand would go a long way I think.
  - Bukhmanizer 5y ago
    PS. I’m pretty sure the reason I’m thinking about this is because I watched the WeWork documentary yesterday. It seems like Neumann capitalized on using rhetoric about this very issue. He talks a lot about how people seem disconnected and disinterested in their surrounding community. A lot of people probably felt that message resonate pretty strongly with them. The problem was that he was trying to solve it with... new office divisions. Which is pretty fucking irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. But my feeling is that a lot of people bought in because they liked that message.
- hi5eyes 5y ago
  >In the west, there’s a taboo about paying for social benefits western internet culture may be changing this taboo, mainly thinking of twitch, onlyfans etc. the internet "simp" phenomenon. its still degenerate but not quite "taboo"
nyx_ 5y ago
This seems like a phenomenon beneath the same umbrella as the NEETs and incels of the western world. A difference, though, is that in all the presentations of hikikomori I've seen, they lack the same toxicity and anger at the outside world, even though their situation is a similar manifestation of broken confidence, extreme social anxiety, so on. I wonder if this is true, or if there's a darker side to the hikikomori that we just don't see as much of.
kqr2 5y ago
Another related essay by the photographer herself: https://witness.worldpressphoto.org/it-felt-safe-here-adcb41725fc2 https://witness.worldpressphoto.org/it-felt-safe-here-adcb41...
hellbannedguy 5y ago
This always makes it's biyearly round. Psyc 101 grads comment if we are lucky? Most of the comments are not even from people associated with Japanese culture.
kingsuper20 5y ago
Just to break it down, it seems to me that isolation is a different thing than inactivity coupled with constrained spaces. If you watch the 'My Self Reliance' channel on youtube (and I realize the guy has a wife and older kids), the alone part doesn't seem so bad if combined with ongoing projects. Plus these are projects that have to get done. Plus, he has a good looking Golden Retriever, no doubt better company than some of the people I know.
oarfish 5y ago
Article seems to be newsletter-signup-walled? On mobile safari, it won't let me read it due to the popup.

78 points by altStoner 5y ago

jchw 5y ago

Archive link: https://archive.is/P8Ym2 https://archive.is/P8Ym2 There is a nag that tries to force you to enter your e-mail mid-way down the page.

HiroshiSan 5y ago
you can also use uBlock Origin to zap the elements.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  Can you get it to successfully work on this page? Zapping elements gets rid of the pop-up, but also makes scrolling impossible.
  - enjoyyourlife 5y ago
    nationalgeographic.com##html:style(height:100%!important;overflow:scroll!important;position: static !important) nationalgeographic.com##body:style(height:100%!important;overflow:scroll!important;position: static !important)
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      I added this to my custom filter list, and it did not get rid of the sign-up pop-up.
      - enjoyyourlife 5y ago
        You can use the zapper tool for that
        Ansil849 5y ago
        Like I said in this thread, I tried and could not get it working. I am curious how other people got it working, since we are using the same tool and seeing the same webpage.
  - HiroshiSan 5y ago
    Yes I was able to get it to successfully work, you just have to keep zapping elements until the page displays properly. This also works on instagram if you're viewing without an account, though they seem to shadowban ip's now as I can't view accounts until after a few days.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      Could you please paste your custom filter rules for it? I tried the keep-zapping approach, and eventually got rid of the pop-ups, but then was unable to actually scroll through the page and read the article.
nyx_ 5y ago
I fed it a Mailinator address and it was happy to let me keep reading.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Reader mode gets around it.

sneak 5y ago

It's a bit interesting that people see this as something that needs "fixing". Is it because it's a psychological disorder? Is it because the parents don't want the financial burden? The pandemic has certainly recently shown me the upsides of withdrawing totally from society. It's not for me (I'm antisocial, not asocial) but I can see why some would prefer it.

rootusrootus 5y ago
> Is it because the parents don't want the financial burden? In the article they mention that the parents pay $8K per year or more for this service.
- ilaksh 5y ago
  The parents are paying for everything. Food, housing, etc. To me it seems like this is basically an extreme on a spectrum of people who are struggling. I have always had difficulty socializing and there were years where I lived with my parents and struggled to find an adequate job. For at least two years I had completely given up. And with my poor self-confidence and social skills, I would not often attempt to socialize then or now. But your income is a huge aspect of your identity in this world. Without any income or a good one, it is going to be hard for anyone to be confident around other people. And with no income for an extended period, that type of shame will make you want to avoid people altogether. Even the last several years where I have had income from online contract programming, I have basically been a hermit and rarely attempt socializing. I feel that honestly part of it is just that I don't think people are comfortable around me. But a big issue is the poor income and lack of self-confidence that comes with that. And reinforcing this stuff are my health issues that have caused me years ago to abandon the idea of high-paid stressful jobs. I have not considered a job with a commute in many years. I feel like what I need is an income about four to six times what seems comfortable for me to maintain. Then I can get out of this financial hole, move back to the United States, pay for good health insurance and hopefully resolve my health issue, and hold my head up high as a property owner. I am not dependent on other people or totally isolated, but I do avoid socializing. My dream is to design, build, and manufacturer robots, so I am experimenting with computer vision. What I do not want to do and don't think I could do even if I tried, is a hardcore 9-5 job working for someone else on projects that are a total waste of time. I would rather continue to be poor. And I will just mention one other thing. Appearance may also factor into this sometimes. Notice that one of the men pictured has mixed blood. That bit of difference that he has could be just one more factor contributing to his isolation. For me, I am quite self-conscious and often am not even sure if my facial asymmetry is in the normal range.

durnygbur 5y ago

The basic needs of a man until his late 30s are quite straightforward. If there is no chance for sex, and professional endeavours deliver more stress than anything else, then why bother with the rest? Saying this from completely different perspective - of a native citizen of less developed EU country, the pandemic measures and shutdowns almost haven't changed my lifestyle.

mwfunk 5y ago
If those are the only things that makes someone happy (it's not necessarily; all people are different, but let's say those are the basic needs at work here), and they aren't getting either of those things, then they can either give up become shut-ins and stay on that trajectory, or they can do everything they can to figure out how become the kind of person they want to be, or at least become a happier or wiser person. Those are the options, perpetually keep trying to become a better version of one's self more capable of happiness (and maybe failing, and probably having some miserable experiences on the way), or give up (and definitely fail, 100% of the time, right out of the gate). Or suicide I guess, but giving up is basically suicide with an exceptionally long and pointless epilogue. Once somebody gives up, from that point on they are no longer victims but the cause of their own problems. It sucks and it's not fair, but adult life can really suck and is definitely not fair. We only get one shot at it so might as well go out trying to do best we can.
- kiba 5y ago
  Saying someone is responsible for themselves really doesn't help them. It's like telling a depressed person that they should be happy. They need help. Because in the end, we're all interdependent and dependent on each other. I had to tell myself that I am the hero or villain of my own story after some help. Still, it's an absolutely painful journey sometime.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  The article's description of cultural pressures on young men seems crushing. One must work obscene hours, never lose face, represent the family at all times, and support a family on one salary.

kjrose 5y ago

"According to him, he is a great man and could do extraordinary things, but he does not always try his best" This is right here probably a major explanation for the whole phenomena. I have seen this exact attitude with individuals who are in their 30s and living with their parents. Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth but the world isn't rewarding them for the little work they do as much as they think it's worth. So, since their whole worldview cannot be reconciled with how they are treated outside their family, it makes sense to retreat to that very same safe place as before. He is right he could do extraordinary things, but first he needs to work hard to get there.

heterodoxxed 5y ago
> Something in their upbringing gave them this immense sense of worth Is there an abundance of this in Japanese culture that I wasn't aware of?
- jmchuster 5y ago
  Probably just an abundance of this in humans in general? A lovely John Steinbeck paraphrase/misquote from another thread: "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
  - kjrose 5y ago
    We live in an age of underappreciated princes with no fiefdoms.
davesque 5y ago
Maybe? Seems like that's assuming a lot about a person's life.
saeranv 5y ago
I noticed this too, because it seemed to be a common theme for many of the men, and also, pretty relatable. Who doesn't think of themselves as capable of "extraordinary things"? If they could recontextualize failure as adversity: a key part of learning, and making progress, the failure could build resilience instead of compounding to a point where they feel like they are better off giving up and isolating.

ForrestN 5y ago

Brief photo theory interlude: beware of rhetoric about photographs "revealing" or "exploring" things. These photographs are telling a story, and have all the subjectivities and editing that we take for granted in written works. They are not empirical evidence, they are works made to represent and persuade. When you see something framed this way, proceed skeptically!

ralusek 5y ago
This has Big Hikikomori written all over it.
pm90 5y ago
Probably a good idea to be skeptical of everything you read. But often that’s not possible.
dvh 5y ago
Must be a conspiracy.
colineartheta 5y ago
Wow, you’ve discovered photojournalism! Incredible!
psychomugs 5y ago
“Let’s face it. What do you know from a photograph? They don’t have narrative ability. You talk about a cow jumping, you don’t know if it’s going up or down from the picture.” - Garry Winogrand Not implying that I agree, but through a very reductionist lens from one of the medium's greats, photographs are nothing more than light on a flat medium. Whatever meaning we imbue is an interpretation.

Bukhmanizer 5y ago

I’m glad the article mostly restrains itself from the “wacky Japan” angle, and states pretty flat out that a “rental sister” is pretty analogous to the role of a social worker. It’s weird that people marvel over “host” and “hostess” clubs in Japan, when I know of many restaurants in the US and Canada, where the main draw is that a pretty girl/guy will be nice to you for your time there. Is it the exact same thing? No. But it’s clearly serving the same niche. The difference seems to be that in Japan, the exchange of social services (in the broadest sense) are pretty direct and straightforward. In the west, there’s a taboo about paying for social benefits, so people have to pretend they actually want to spend $20 on a crappy burger that happens to be served by an attractive woman.

Bukhmanizer 5y ago
Cont. My theory is that we go through this little dance because we can’t stand to admit that there’s anything structurally wrong with our society. If people feel lonely, or unsupported by their community, then well, it just means they’re broken, and should go through years of expensive and intensive therapy. Otherwise, just deal with it and get back to work. I’m not saying we all need to join communes or anything, but explicit recognition of the problem at hand would go a long way I think.
- Bukhmanizer 5y ago
  PS. I’m pretty sure the reason I’m thinking about this is because I watched the WeWork documentary yesterday. It seems like Neumann capitalized on using rhetoric about this very issue. He talks a lot about how people seem disconnected and disinterested in their surrounding community. A lot of people probably felt that message resonate pretty strongly with them. The problem was that he was trying to solve it with... new office divisions. Which is pretty fucking irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. But my feeling is that a lot of people bought in because they liked that message.
hi5eyes 5y ago
>In the west, there’s a taboo about paying for social benefits western internet culture may be changing this taboo, mainly thinking of twitch, onlyfans etc. the internet "simp" phenomenon. its still degenerate but not quite "taboo"

nyx_ 5y ago

This seems like a phenomenon beneath the same umbrella as the NEETs and incels of the western world. A difference, though, is that in all the presentations of hikikomori I've seen, they lack the same toxicity and anger at the outside world, even though their situation is a similar manifestation of broken confidence, extreme social anxiety, so on. I wonder if this is true, or if there's a darker side to the hikikomori that we just don't see as much of.

kqr2 5y ago

Another related essay by the photographer herself: https://witness.worldpressphoto.org/it-felt-safe-here-adcb41725fc2 https://witness.worldpressphoto.org/it-felt-safe-here-adcb41...

hellbannedguy 5y ago

This always makes it's biyearly round. Psyc 101 grads comment if we are lucky? Most of the comments are not even from people associated with Japanese culture.

kingsuper20 5y ago

Just to break it down, it seems to me that isolation is a different thing than inactivity coupled with constrained spaces. If you watch the 'My Self Reliance' channel on youtube (and I realize the guy has a wife and older kids), the alone part doesn't seem so bad if combined with ongoing projects. Plus these are projects that have to get done. Plus, he has a good looking Golden Retriever, no doubt better company than some of the people I know.

oarfish 5y ago

Article seems to be newsletter-signup-walled? On mobile safari, it won't let me read it due to the popup.