4 ms·

> even if it can't pay a huge amount for some positions, there's always a lot of recognition that everyone is needed to make it work, and everyone is appreciate

> even if it can't pay a huge amount for some positions, there's always a lot of recognition that everyone is needed to make it work, and everyone is appreciated I can't pay my rent in recognition or appreciation though.

jachee 5y ago
Then just move somewhere you can afford without "a huge amount".
Sebb767 5y ago
But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. Yes, it does not replace money, but for some people it is worth more to feel happy at work than to receive a bit more money.
- aniforprez 5y ago
  I mean "some people" is clearly not the person you're replying to and I agree with them. I'd much rather get paid for the work I do. Unless I have a stake in the company, the company is not my family and my work is a means to an end
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > the company is not my family and my work is a means to an end That's fine. I wasn't making some argument that you should work for someone that's like family, just that there's a whole spectrum between "caring about my company stops at shift end" and "my identity is bound up in this place I work". I think most people would agree that money isn't the only thing most people care about when choosing a job. There's plenty of people here that would balk at writing better missile targeting code, or exploits for a government, or spying software marketed to spouses, or even writing video games that trigger compulsive behavior. For some people, dislike of the work outweighs the fact that they can get paid very well doing it. FWIW, some of my time in the past was spent working for my brother at his IT company, which also employed our other brother. It's great working with family until it isn't, and when it isn't, it really isn't. I don't recommend working for family most the time, and I don't think people should treat their coworkers as family. I do think people should try to find a job where they enjoy the people they are around and are proud of the work they do, if they can afford to choose a job like that. If you're going to spend close to half your waking hours doing something, I think it's much more fulfilling and better for your mental health to care about more than the amount you're paid if you can afford to.
    - aniforprez 5y ago
      Fair enough yeah I do agree with the spectrum between "jaded employee" and "enthusiastic achiever"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Adequate money + fun > Lots of money + miserable
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    That depends. If the extra money is enough you may have enough to become your own boss after some time spent being miserable. I've been quite miserable whenever I worked as an employee (I carefully picked the companies I worked for and I don't really have many complaints - I just can't stand company politics, power plays and stupid decisions from above) but I used my time as an employee to save some money and use paternity leave to build a family. Also, as a sleepless parent, my brain is not in top shape and I'm ok with doing what I need to do to collect a paycheck. Now, those 5 years being miserable will translate to buying a property in cash somewhere with nice weather, lowering our expenses tremendously (more than half is rent right now) and allowing us to live off some almost passive revenue stream (think, 1 man micro-saas). We're planning to use the free time to build more products and edge ourselves against the risk of not being able to afford our lifestyle and have to go the employee route again.
- lelanthran 5y ago
  > But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. It depends. If working 10-hour Saturdays for a year results in me buying a yacht, you can be sure that actual real money bought the happiness that came with my yacht. It's all a tradeoff and for some things you are unlikely to get the big payoff without a risk involved. Determining where your personal boundaries are with the risk-taking is an individual decision. TLDR; you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.
  - mijamo 5y ago
    If you have a reasonably high income, I think the tradeof is actually never worth it, because the marginal happiness from money gets so low. Sure I could buy a yacht but that's not going to make me much happier. Buying a mansion by the sea would not really make me much happier either. Sure I might do it if I had the money because why not but that would not accept to work on weekends for a few years to get it even if it was guaranteed.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    > It depends. If working 10-hour Saturdays for a year results in me buying a yacht, you can be sure that actual real money bought the happiness that came with my yacht. Great. Now you have to pay for maintenance, staff, and insurance. So you need to keep making that amount of money or you’ll lose it. The added stress and expenses make it a bit of a poisoned gift. > TLDR; you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. Most people who play don’t win, either.
  - freeflight 5y ago
    Then you will be stuck working 10-hour Saturdays to pay for the running costs and maintenance of said yacht, which still leaves you with barely any time to actually enjoy your yacht.
kbenson 5y ago
That's not meant to imply they don't pay well. I included that as a nod to some people I've known in the past that thought they didn't pay well enough, but I also know they've been much more competitive for tech positions the last decade or so (you have to, being SF adjacent). As for tech support (where I think a majority of grumbling traditionally was), I'm not sure what that's like now. It's also a problem of supply and demand though, lots of people are qualified for that. It doesn't matter how much you like a specific company if they don't have a need for your skills or your skills don't provide enough to live off of. I'm not saying abandon your tech career to work as a janitor at your favorite company, just that there are lots of other choices for someone in tech other than working at a startup. Some pay okay, some pay quite well. Some may not pay well at all. What someone thinks is worth it is obviously up to them and their circumstances.
kergonath 5y ago
But it makes it easier to stay motivated to keep working. Of course, at the end of the day you still need enough to pay the bills. You still have a better, healthier, less stressful life than if you feel you are being exploited or not recognised.
- pc86 5y ago
  > But it makes it easier to stay motivated to keep working. To... keep working... at your underpaid job?
  - kergonath 5y ago
    There was no mention of the job being underpaid, was there? Then, if your definition of “underpaid” is “lower salary than one could get elsewhere”, well, we are all underpaid. But it matters only if your salary is not enough to cover your lifestyle. Bearing that in mind, I’d rather be paid less to work in a nice working environment than better paid in a stressful professional nightmare. I’ve done my share of nightmares already.
RobertKerans 5y ago
What point are you trying to make? Nowhere in the post does it say the job doesn't pay enough to cover rent. If you are spending a large amount of life employed, it's reasonable to trade off a percentage of the maximum possible renumeration you can achieve in exchange for making that time as pleasant as possible (eg if you luck out and end up working with a group of people you care about and who care about you). It's not as if any extra money you make can ever buy you that time back There's nothing wrong at all with just seeking maximum income at all times, but that's normally to some end (happiness, security etc): if what you're seeking is partially served by a given job, then you often aren't really gaining much by sacking that job off for one that pays more

jachee 5y ago

Then just move somewhere you can afford without "a huge amount".

Sebb767 5y ago

But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. Yes, it does not replace money, but for some people it is worth more to feel happy at work than to receive a bit more money.

aniforprez 5y ago
I mean "some people" is clearly not the person you're replying to and I agree with them. I'd much rather get paid for the work I do. Unless I have a stake in the company, the company is not my family and my work is a means to an end
- kbenson 5y ago
  > the company is not my family and my work is a means to an end That's fine. I wasn't making some argument that you should work for someone that's like family, just that there's a whole spectrum between "caring about my company stops at shift end" and "my identity is bound up in this place I work". I think most people would agree that money isn't the only thing most people care about when choosing a job. There's plenty of people here that would balk at writing better missile targeting code, or exploits for a government, or spying software marketed to spouses, or even writing video games that trigger compulsive behavior. For some people, dislike of the work outweighs the fact that they can get paid very well doing it. FWIW, some of my time in the past was spent working for my brother at his IT company, which also employed our other brother. It's great working with family until it isn't, and when it isn't, it really isn't. I don't recommend working for family most the time, and I don't think people should treat their coworkers as family. I do think people should try to find a job where they enjoy the people they are around and are proud of the work they do, if they can afford to choose a job like that. If you're going to spend close to half your waking hours doing something, I think it's much more fulfilling and better for your mental health to care about more than the amount you're paid if you can afford to.
  - aniforprez 5y ago
    Fair enough yeah I do agree with the spectrum between "jaded employee" and "enthusiastic achiever"
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Aeolun 5y ago
Adequate money + fun > Lots of money + miserable
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  That depends. If the extra money is enough you may have enough to become your own boss after some time spent being miserable. I've been quite miserable whenever I worked as an employee (I carefully picked the companies I worked for and I don't really have many complaints - I just can't stand company politics, power plays and stupid decisions from above) but I used my time as an employee to save some money and use paternity leave to build a family. Also, as a sleepless parent, my brain is not in top shape and I'm ok with doing what I need to do to collect a paycheck. Now, those 5 years being miserable will translate to buying a property in cash somewhere with nice weather, lowering our expenses tremendously (more than half is rent right now) and allowing us to live off some almost passive revenue stream (think, 1 man micro-saas). We're planning to use the free time to build more products and edge ourselves against the risk of not being able to afford our lifestyle and have to go the employee route again.
lelanthran 5y ago
> But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. It depends. If working 10-hour Saturdays for a year results in me buying a yacht, you can be sure that actual real money bought the happiness that came with my yacht. It's all a tradeoff and for some things you are unlikely to get the big payoff without a risk involved. Determining where your personal boundaries are with the risk-taking is an individual decision. TLDR; you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.
- mijamo 5y ago
  If you have a reasonably high income, I think the tradeof is actually never worth it, because the marginal happiness from money gets so low. Sure I could buy a yacht but that's not going to make me much happier. Buying a mansion by the sea would not really make me much happier either. Sure I might do it if I had the money because why not but that would not accept to work on weekends for a few years to get it even if it was guaranteed.
- kergonath 5y ago
  > It depends. If working 10-hour Saturdays for a year results in me buying a yacht, you can be sure that actual real money bought the happiness that came with my yacht. Great. Now you have to pay for maintenance, staff, and insurance. So you need to keep making that amount of money or you’ll lose it. The added stress and expenses make it a bit of a poisoned gift. > TLDR; you can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. Most people who play don’t win, either.
- freeflight 5y ago
  Then you will be stuck working 10-hour Saturdays to pay for the running costs and maintenance of said yacht, which still leaves you with barely any time to actually enjoy your yacht.

kbenson 5y ago

That's not meant to imply they don't pay well. I included that as a nod to some people I've known in the past that thought they didn't pay well enough, but I also know they've been much more competitive for tech positions the last decade or so (you have to, being SF adjacent). As for tech support (where I think a majority of grumbling traditionally was), I'm not sure what that's like now. It's also a problem of supply and demand though, lots of people are qualified for that. It doesn't matter how much you like a specific company if they don't have a need for your skills or your skills don't provide enough to live off of. I'm not saying abandon your tech career to work as a janitor at your favorite company, just that there are lots of other choices for someone in tech other than working at a startup. Some pay okay, some pay quite well. Some may not pay well at all. What someone thinks is worth it is obviously up to them and their circumstances.

kergonath 5y ago

But it makes it easier to stay motivated to keep working. Of course, at the end of the day you still need enough to pay the bills. You still have a better, healthier, less stressful life than if you feel you are being exploited or not recognised.

pc86 5y ago
> But it makes it easier to stay motivated to keep working. To... keep working... at your underpaid job?
- kergonath 5y ago
  There was no mention of the job being underpaid, was there? Then, if your definition of “underpaid” is “lower salary than one could get elsewhere”, well, we are all underpaid. But it matters only if your salary is not enough to cover your lifestyle. Bearing that in mind, I’d rather be paid less to work in a nice working environment than better paid in a stressful professional nightmare. I’ve done my share of nightmares already.

RobertKerans 5y ago

What point are you trying to make? Nowhere in the post does it say the job doesn't pay enough to cover rent. If you are spending a large amount of life employed, it's reasonable to trade off a percentage of the maximum possible renumeration you can achieve in exchange for making that time as pleasant as possible (eg if you luck out and end up working with a group of people you care about and who care about you). It's not as if any extra money you make can ever buy you that time back There's nothing wrong at all with just seeking maximum income at all times, but that's normally to some end (happiness, security etc): if what you're seeking is partially served by a given job, then you often aren't really gaining much by sacking that job off for one that pays more