7 ms·

It’s a decentralized Ponzi scheme. It’s why Bitcoin owners are so aggressive in convincing others to buy Bitcoin.

by ABeeSea 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
herbst 5y ago
I honestly never experienced that. Its not like any crypto investor is running around converting others.
- tim333 5y ago
  There are people promoting it on youtube - I was watching some last night (What Bitcoin Did https://youtu.be/Pw6tfNh8DAk https://youtu.be/Pw6tfNh8DAk) but most seem to be recommending it sincerely rather than trying to sucker some fools in so they can cash out. It's an interesting time in the history of bitcoin as we are starting to see a move from small speculators (number go up) to institutions buying in (it's sensible to diversify 5% of your portfolio into crypoassets as they have historically high returns and low correlations).
  - herbst 5y ago
    Sure i do talk positive about crypto too. But i would never tell anyone where to put their money. Its just wrong to think all people in crypto are evangelising others into their ponzi investments
- ABeeSea 5y ago
  How many crypto investors have you been around? I’ve had many, many coworkers trying to convince me to buy Bitcoin over the last decade. This is across different companies, teams etc. And I have definitely witnessed the same thing online. I mean I wish I had listened because BTC was $50 a coin the first time someone tried to convince me to buy in.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    It was $50 at the time precisely because people failed to convince others. I see lots of people fall into the "If I only had done X back in year Y, then I would be rich." fallacy. No, you wouldn't be rich, because the information available at the time didn't justify such a decision. If that information were available, Bitcoin would have been worth $60k in 2009. Right now nobody can tell you what will happen to Bitcoin, because all available information is already priced in. At this point it might go up but it might go down as well.
    - ABeeSea 5y ago
      That wasn’t my argument but Ok.
  - herbst 5y ago
    Plenty. However maybe thats a cultural thing but i rarely have people insisting on any kind of investing advice. We might talk about stuff, but both sides know risks are involved. I never experienced evangelism IRL and i even spent some time in ctypto meetups
- dorkwood 5y ago
  The entire crypto art movement is a marketing campaign designed to turn artists into crypto evangelists, i.e. convert others.
  - herbst 5y ago
    Source? Couldnt it be that some artists are just super happy they found a way to dsitribute their art lucratively?
    - dorkwood 5y ago
      I’m not saying that all artists are in on it (probably very few of them are). But the truth is that the artists who are getting paid are the ones pushing NFTs as “the future of art” and who have the influence to rope in newcomers. Collectors in the space refer to this as “engaging with the community”. The crypto-famous NFT collector “Silver Surfer”, known for dropping hundreds of thousands of dollars on NFTs [1], tweets “celebrities that fail to get engaged with their communities will continue to have weak secondary [NFT] sales.” [2] That’s weird, I wonder why the money would stop flowing if the artist stopped tweeting about NFTs? Doesn’t their art still have value? The truth is, if you spend enough time around the crypto art community, you realize that there aren’t any “real” art collectors in the space. There are crypto speculators, and there are artists who feel obliged to “engage with the community”. The lack of real money flowing into the space is what leads me to label this as a marketing campaign, as opposed to a completely organic movement. It’s a somewhat decentralized marketing campaign, but it’s a marketing campaign nonetheless. [1] https://twitter.com/makersplaceco/status/1359654252944105473 https://twitter.com/makersplaceco/status/1359654252944105473 [2] https://twitter.com/7Surfer7Silver7/status/1382781884443336706 https://twitter.com/7Surfer7Silver7/status/13827818844433367...
wslh 5y ago
While you can be tempted to define Bitcoin in that way, the Ponzi scheme definition doesn't apply [1]. As the parent comment: in Bitcoin no investor has the precise information of when to exit to defraud others. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp
- ABeeSea 5y ago
  No one has denied that Bitcoin is an innovator when it comes to new ways to scam and defraud people.
- corty 5y ago
  I think the Tether people know quite well when to exit, because their implosion will bring Bitcoin down.
  - acjohnson55 5y ago
    Why? There are other stablecoins, with better reputation. Could people just switch to them?
    - corty 5y ago
      Tether mediates a lot of the BTC/USD-exchanges. At the same time there are rumours that tether has insufficient USD backing, so if there is ever a bank run, exchanges will be unable to pay. At that point it will be too late for a tether alternative. And after the "big tether crash", regulation will be a lot harsher on exchanges and possibly all crypto currencies, which will continue to depress courses. And I really don't know if the alternatives are any better.
      - acjohnson55 5y ago
        Yeah, I totally get the concerns about Tether's solvency. I guess what I don't get is why Tether remains popular, as a product that isn't unique. Is it just that it's too dangerous for everyone to admit that the emperor has no clothes, because it would crash the whole system? Is it not a liquid market? If I were sitting on a bunch of USDT, but I wanted to be holding USD stablecoins, just generally speaking, why not swap them into a different stablecoin? Maybe another question I should be asking is what proportion of Tether is being used to collateralize leveraged long positions in other crypto assets? Maybe that's why this is a tinder box? Sorry for all of the questions, but legitimately trying to understand what people are talking about.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
What investment is not a Ponzi scheme? Real estate and stocks rely on a greater fool that was later to the party to come buy them at a later date. Stocks have appreciated in value so far past what they are worth for a dividend that we have had to give up that charade long ago. From the wiki for Ponzi scheme- > The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g. product sales and/or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. TSLA has a P/E of 1,181 right now. Peloton is 1,660. Amazon is even 80. How is it any different right now?
- walleeee 5y ago
  Yes, and it's not only stock market misvaluation. Perpetual growth economics itself functions like a Ponzi scheme insofar as it renders the planet more challenging for future humans to live on.
- Retric 5y ago
  Stocks have dividends, loans have interest, land has either rents or utility from using it. It’s that income stream beyond the initial capital that turns something into an investment. Bitcoin lacks that, it only has money from new investors and it loses money from mining. Which means without new investment it’s value must crash which creates incentives for people that own Bitcoin to convince others to buy Bitcoin. The only way to argue Bitcoin has long term value is it must provide inherent utility like land. Increasing the number of transactions per second would be one way to demonstrate that value, but talking about future value doesn’t.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >Stocks have dividends when was the last time TSLA paid out a dividend?
    - Retric 5y ago
      Growth is optimizing for future dividends. If you know a stock will never issue a dividend, buyback, etc the it’s value is 0. That’s why people talk about future cash flows.

It’s a decentralized Ponzi scheme. It’s why Bitcoin owners are so aggressive in convincing others to buy Bitcoin.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

herbst 5y ago

I honestly never experienced that. Its not like any crypto investor is running around converting others.

tim333 5y ago
There are people promoting it on youtube - I was watching some last night (What Bitcoin Did https://youtu.be/Pw6tfNh8DAk https://youtu.be/Pw6tfNh8DAk) but most seem to be recommending it sincerely rather than trying to sucker some fools in so they can cash out. It's an interesting time in the history of bitcoin as we are starting to see a move from small speculators (number go up) to institutions buying in (it's sensible to diversify 5% of your portfolio into crypoassets as they have historically high returns and low correlations).
- herbst 5y ago
  Sure i do talk positive about crypto too. But i would never tell anyone where to put their money. Its just wrong to think all people in crypto are evangelising others into their ponzi investments
ABeeSea 5y ago
How many crypto investors have you been around? I’ve had many, many coworkers trying to convince me to buy Bitcoin over the last decade. This is across different companies, teams etc. And I have definitely witnessed the same thing online. I mean I wish I had listened because BTC was $50 a coin the first time someone tried to convince me to buy in.
- imtringued 5y ago
  It was $50 at the time precisely because people failed to convince others. I see lots of people fall into the "If I only had done X back in year Y, then I would be rich." fallacy. No, you wouldn't be rich, because the information available at the time didn't justify such a decision. If that information were available, Bitcoin would have been worth $60k in 2009. Right now nobody can tell you what will happen to Bitcoin, because all available information is already priced in. At this point it might go up but it might go down as well.
  - ABeeSea 5y ago
    That wasn’t my argument but Ok.
- herbst 5y ago
  Plenty. However maybe thats a cultural thing but i rarely have people insisting on any kind of investing advice. We might talk about stuff, but both sides know risks are involved. I never experienced evangelism IRL and i even spent some time in ctypto meetups
dorkwood 5y ago
The entire crypto art movement is a marketing campaign designed to turn artists into crypto evangelists, i.e. convert others.
- herbst 5y ago
  Source? Couldnt it be that some artists are just super happy they found a way to dsitribute their art lucratively?
  - dorkwood 5y ago
    I’m not saying that all artists are in on it (probably very few of them are). But the truth is that the artists who are getting paid are the ones pushing NFTs as “the future of art” and who have the influence to rope in newcomers. Collectors in the space refer to this as “engaging with the community”. The crypto-famous NFT collector “Silver Surfer”, known for dropping hundreds of thousands of dollars on NFTs [1], tweets “celebrities that fail to get engaged with their communities will continue to have weak secondary [NFT] sales.” [2] That’s weird, I wonder why the money would stop flowing if the artist stopped tweeting about NFTs? Doesn’t their art still have value? The truth is, if you spend enough time around the crypto art community, you realize that there aren’t any “real” art collectors in the space. There are crypto speculators, and there are artists who feel obliged to “engage with the community”. The lack of real money flowing into the space is what leads me to label this as a marketing campaign, as opposed to a completely organic movement. It’s a somewhat decentralized marketing campaign, but it’s a marketing campaign nonetheless. [1] https://twitter.com/makersplaceco/status/1359654252944105473 https://twitter.com/makersplaceco/status/1359654252944105473 [2] https://twitter.com/7Surfer7Silver7/status/1382781884443336706 https://twitter.com/7Surfer7Silver7/status/13827818844433367...

wslh 5y ago

While you can be tempted to define Bitcoin in that way, the Ponzi scheme definition doesn't apply [1]. As the parent comment: in Bitcoin no investor has the precise information of when to exit to defraud others. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp

ABeeSea 5y ago
No one has denied that Bitcoin is an innovator when it comes to new ways to scam and defraud people.
corty 5y ago
I think the Tether people know quite well when to exit, because their implosion will bring Bitcoin down.
- acjohnson55 5y ago
  Why? There are other stablecoins, with better reputation. Could people just switch to them?
  - corty 5y ago
    Tether mediates a lot of the BTC/USD-exchanges. At the same time there are rumours that tether has insufficient USD backing, so if there is ever a bank run, exchanges will be unable to pay. At that point it will be too late for a tether alternative. And after the "big tether crash", regulation will be a lot harsher on exchanges and possibly all crypto currencies, which will continue to depress courses. And I really don't know if the alternatives are any better.
    - acjohnson55 5y ago
      Yeah, I totally get the concerns about Tether's solvency. I guess what I don't get is why Tether remains popular, as a product that isn't unique. Is it just that it's too dangerous for everyone to admit that the emperor has no clothes, because it would crash the whole system? Is it not a liquid market? If I were sitting on a bunch of USDT, but I wanted to be holding USD stablecoins, just generally speaking, why not swap them into a different stablecoin? Maybe another question I should be asking is what proportion of Tether is being used to collateralize leveraged long positions in other crypto assets? Maybe that's why this is a tinder box? Sorry for all of the questions, but legitimately trying to understand what people are talking about.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago

What investment is not a Ponzi scheme? Real estate and stocks rely on a greater fool that was later to the party to come buy them at a later date. Stocks have appreciated in value so far past what they are worth for a dividend that we have had to give up that charade long ago. From the wiki for Ponzi scheme- > The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g. product sales and/or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. TSLA has a P/E of 1,181 right now. Peloton is 1,660. Amazon is even 80. How is it any different right now?

walleeee 5y ago
Yes, and it's not only stock market misvaluation. Perpetual growth economics itself functions like a Ponzi scheme insofar as it renders the planet more challenging for future humans to live on.
Retric 5y ago
Stocks have dividends, loans have interest, land has either rents or utility from using it. It’s that income stream beyond the initial capital that turns something into an investment. Bitcoin lacks that, it only has money from new investors and it loses money from mining. Which means without new investment it’s value must crash which creates incentives for people that own Bitcoin to convince others to buy Bitcoin. The only way to argue Bitcoin has long term value is it must provide inherent utility like land. Increasing the number of transactions per second would be one way to demonstrate that value, but talking about future value doesn’t.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Stocks have dividends when was the last time TSLA paid out a dividend?
  - Retric 5y ago
    Growth is optimizing for future dividends. If you know a stock will never issue a dividend, buyback, etc the it’s value is 0. That’s why people talk about future cash flows.