3 ms·

You're right, but: * performance is not really an issue for most software ("97% of the time, premature optimization is evil"). A well designed software doesn't

by jokoon 6y ago

You're right, but: * performance is not really an issue for most software ("97% of the time, premature optimization is evil"). A well designed software doesn't suffer from performance issues with current computer performance, unless you do AI or bleeding edge graphics or science simulation. * there are ways to speed up performance sensitive parts with something else than java, for example by using C/C++, would it be with a python module or cython. Not ideal, but generally you gain performance by adapting your design, not by changing languages. A garbage collector is rarely predictable, hence java is not a good fit for performance. * I remember playing minecraft with friends, and the server was regularly crashing because it was out of memory, or something like that.

Nursie 6y ago
The OP brought up performance reasons to choose language. :shrug: > I remember playing minecraft with friends, and the server was regularly crashing because it was out of memory, or something like that. I've seen this, but I don't think you can really use one server program running out of RAM as indicative of much. I do still find the pre-setting of max memory on the command line a little bit odd though.
- toomanybeersies 6y ago
  Pre-setting max memory seems odd these days, when everything runs in docker, with its configurable memory limits. Handling process memory usage pre-docker wasn't so easy.
- pydry 6y ago
  Performance as an issue is massively overstated in high level languages. CPU intensive hot paths are rarer than people think, I/O performance is a bigger deal than people think and there's more hyper optimized code written in performant languages that you can call directly than most people realize. A lot of graduates think that compsci jobs involve optimizing algorithms or some shit coz they did that type of thing as undergrads, so they port that attitude across. It's also the reason why pypy was massively hyped for a while and then not really used all that much. It was solving the performance problems python never really had.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    It's true, that the situations in which you care about it are few. The most recent performance issue I've come up against is actually java's startup time, because for reasons unknown my client decided java AWS lambdas were the way to go, has quite a large, complex codebase built around it, and now has complaints about startup latency. I have noticed some younger engineers on C++ projects doing some kooky things "because it's more optimal", and have taken time to explain to them that the micro-optimisations they're using impact readability, are going to be done by the compiler anyway if they're at all useful, and are likely to be several orders of magnitude less relevant than some lock somewhere, or a bit of IO, or whatever.
CodeGlitch 6y ago
> I remember playing minecraft with friends, and the server was regularly crashing because it was out of memory, Could be a problem with the logic/design of the server rather than a problem with Java? Despite memory being GC'd, you can still run out of it if you just keep allocating stuff. The important thing about Java is that it doesn't suffer from the usual C or C++ memory exploits.
TheCoelacanth 6y ago
I don't think I've ever worked on an application where performance wasn't a problem. The ability of programmers to write slow software grows faster than computing power does. > well designed software Ah, there's my problem. Maybe at some point I'll get a chance to work on one of those.

by jokoon 6y ago

Nursie 6y ago

The OP brought up performance reasons to choose language. :shrug: > I remember playing minecraft with friends, and the server was regularly crashing because it was out of memory, or something like that. I've seen this, but I don't think you can really use one server program running out of RAM as indicative of much. I do still find the pre-setting of max memory on the command line a little bit odd though.

toomanybeersies 6y ago
Pre-setting max memory seems odd these days, when everything runs in docker, with its configurable memory limits. Handling process memory usage pre-docker wasn't so easy.
pydry 6y ago
Performance as an issue is massively overstated in high level languages. CPU intensive hot paths are rarer than people think, I/O performance is a bigger deal than people think and there's more hyper optimized code written in performant languages that you can call directly than most people realize. A lot of graduates think that compsci jobs involve optimizing algorithms or some shit coz they did that type of thing as undergrads, so they port that attitude across. It's also the reason why pypy was massively hyped for a while and then not really used all that much. It was solving the performance problems python never really had.
- Nursie 6y ago
  It's true, that the situations in which you care about it are few. The most recent performance issue I've come up against is actually java's startup time, because for reasons unknown my client decided java AWS lambdas were the way to go, has quite a large, complex codebase built around it, and now has complaints about startup latency. I have noticed some younger engineers on C++ projects doing some kooky things "because it's more optimal", and have taken time to explain to them that the micro-optimisations they're using impact readability, are going to be done by the compiler anyway if they're at all useful, and are likely to be several orders of magnitude less relevant than some lock somewhere, or a bit of IO, or whatever.

CodeGlitch 6y ago

> I remember playing minecraft with friends, and the server was regularly crashing because it was out of memory, Could be a problem with the logic/design of the server rather than a problem with Java? Despite memory being GC'd, you can still run out of it if you just keep allocating stuff. The important thing about Java is that it doesn't suffer from the usual C or C++ memory exploits.

TheCoelacanth 6y ago

I don't think I've ever worked on an application where performance wasn't a problem. The ability of programmers to write slow software grows faster than computing power does. > well designed software Ah, there's my problem. Maybe at some point I'll get a chance to work on one of those.