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Apple does exactly the same thing https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223

by mavhc 6y ago

kevingadd 6y ago
Apple does not have an equivalent to FLoC.
- artifact_44 6y ago
  lol. uh huh.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Can you elaborate? The linked page explains how Apple has "segments": behavioral groups, based on your private interactions (and explicit personal information too!), used in order to target ads. What's the difference between this and a FLoC cohort?
  - lstamour 6y ago
    Apple uses segments for itself, FLoC is a web standard, so third-parties can de-anonymize as a side-effect: https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/100 https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/100 Frankly the same problem exists in PCM’s, Apple’s proposed solution to allow private tracking from ad clicks: https://github.com/privacycg/private-click-measurement/issues/78#issuecomment-814161276 https://github.com/privacycg/private-click-measurement/issue... However, both of these are solutions to help web developers of third-party sites and ad networks track end users anonymously. All would argue that they’re better than third-party cookies, though in reality, users might want to turn off or opt out of both of these anonymize tracking devices. Another way of putting it: I don’t mind sharing my data with Apple when Apple says to trust them. I also don’t mind sharing data with Google when Google says to trust them. I do both on a regular basis with iCloud and Google Drive for example. What I have a problem with is when people try to “solve” third-party cookies in a way that doesn’t increase privacy but simply pretends to. I’m not against first party telemetry data, I love it as an engineer and I know that bugs found and reported with it can be fixed, thus improving my experience with products. What I dislike is when advertising companies can sign deals with Google or Facebook and gain access to lots of info about how well their campaigns are working, or when I don’t know when my data is being used, or when companies start messing with DNS so third-parties look like first-party just to increase revenue. To me it says it all that Google apparently turns off FLoC when inside GDPR zones. Only stronger laws will actually prevent bad behaviour on legitimate rule-abiding services. Only providing less and less means of tracking can we truly start to prevent it technically. Looking for replacements to tracking to support existing business models is doomed to failure as long as people can keep voting, literally and figuratively, for privacy-preserving alternatives and policies.
  - nyc640 6y ago
    Conceptually, they are similar, but based on what I understand the implications are very different based on how data is collected and who it is available to. Apple ad targeting: - collected from device info, purchases made from Apple (apps, shows, movies, books, etc.), and app store searches - used to serve ads in Apple apps (App Store, Stocks, News), so while Apple knows what segment you're in, it's hard to see how that's any worse than what they already know about you (assuming you trust Apple with your info, which I assume you mostly do if you use Apple devices) Google Floc: - collected from all of your browsing history in Chrome, not just on Google properties - your Floc ID is available not just to Google, but to every site you visit because Chrome serves it up. This means any site would have immediate access to your interests and demographics. Say you sign up for a site with your name or other identifying information, now they can link your personal information with your interests and browsing habits. So now you don't only have to trust Google, but you have to trust every entity you interact with on Chrome.
fauigerzigerk 6y ago
And interestingly you have to turn this off separately on every single device. It's not an Apple account thing as you might expect. I had it turned off on my iPhone but Apple was still tracking me on my Mac until I noticed just now. Sneaky.
- Akadeau 6y ago
  When you first set up the device, you get a screen that asks you if you want it on or off. It tells you that it's used for targeted advertising. Every time you update your Mac to a major software version you get a window pop up with those questions too (along with stuff about Siri, telemetrics, etc). That's not the same thing as having it on by default and hiding the setting in a menu somewhere. But that's how your comment reads. You probably just ignored the questions and closed the window. There's a lot of things you can fault Apple for, but I wouldn't consider that one of them.
  - fauigerzigerk 6y ago
    What I'm saying is that I thought I had already made that decision by turning it off on my phone. So I didn't pay enough attention to it when it must have come up again at the time I set up my new Mac. I'm not saying this is particularly egregious. I just find it slightly annoying that they keep trying to make me opt into this after I explicitly opted out. Not a big deal though.
scottoreily 6y ago
Wrong, fool

Apple does exactly the same thing https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223

by mavhc 6y ago

Apple does exactly the same thing https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205223

kevingadd 6y ago

Apple does not have an equivalent to FLoC.

artifact_44 6y ago
lol. uh huh.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Can you elaborate? The linked page explains how Apple has "segments": behavioral groups, based on your private interactions (and explicit personal information too!), used in order to target ads. What's the difference between this and a FLoC cohort?
- lstamour 6y ago
  Apple uses segments for itself, FLoC is a web standard, so third-parties can de-anonymize as a side-effect: https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/100 https://github.com/WICG/floc/issues/100 Frankly the same problem exists in PCM’s, Apple’s proposed solution to allow private tracking from ad clicks: https://github.com/privacycg/private-click-measurement/issues/78#issuecomment-814161276 https://github.com/privacycg/private-click-measurement/issue... However, both of these are solutions to help web developers of third-party sites and ad networks track end users anonymously. All would argue that they’re better than third-party cookies, though in reality, users might want to turn off or opt out of both of these anonymize tracking devices. Another way of putting it: I don’t mind sharing my data with Apple when Apple says to trust them. I also don’t mind sharing data with Google when Google says to trust them. I do both on a regular basis with iCloud and Google Drive for example. What I have a problem with is when people try to “solve” third-party cookies in a way that doesn’t increase privacy but simply pretends to. I’m not against first party telemetry data, I love it as an engineer and I know that bugs found and reported with it can be fixed, thus improving my experience with products. What I dislike is when advertising companies can sign deals with Google or Facebook and gain access to lots of info about how well their campaigns are working, or when I don’t know when my data is being used, or when companies start messing with DNS so third-parties look like first-party just to increase revenue. To me it says it all that Google apparently turns off FLoC when inside GDPR zones. Only stronger laws will actually prevent bad behaviour on legitimate rule-abiding services. Only providing less and less means of tracking can we truly start to prevent it technically. Looking for replacements to tracking to support existing business models is doomed to failure as long as people can keep voting, literally and figuratively, for privacy-preserving alternatives and policies.
- nyc640 6y ago
  Conceptually, they are similar, but based on what I understand the implications are very different based on how data is collected and who it is available to. Apple ad targeting: - collected from device info, purchases made from Apple (apps, shows, movies, books, etc.), and app store searches - used to serve ads in Apple apps (App Store, Stocks, News), so while Apple knows what segment you're in, it's hard to see how that's any worse than what they already know about you (assuming you trust Apple with your info, which I assume you mostly do if you use Apple devices) Google Floc: - collected from all of your browsing history in Chrome, not just on Google properties - your Floc ID is available not just to Google, but to every site you visit because Chrome serves it up. This means any site would have immediate access to your interests and demographics. Say you sign up for a site with your name or other identifying information, now they can link your personal information with your interests and browsing habits. So now you don't only have to trust Google, but you have to trust every entity you interact with on Chrome.

fauigerzigerk 6y ago

And interestingly you have to turn this off separately on every single device. It's not an Apple account thing as you might expect. I had it turned off on my iPhone but Apple was still tracking me on my Mac until I noticed just now. Sneaky.

Akadeau 6y ago
When you first set up the device, you get a screen that asks you if you want it on or off. It tells you that it's used for targeted advertising. Every time you update your Mac to a major software version you get a window pop up with those questions too (along with stuff about Siri, telemetrics, etc). That's not the same thing as having it on by default and hiding the setting in a menu somewhere. But that's how your comment reads. You probably just ignored the questions and closed the window. There's a lot of things you can fault Apple for, but I wouldn't consider that one of them.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  What I'm saying is that I thought I had already made that decision by turning it off on my phone. So I didn't pay enough attention to it when it must have come up again at the time I set up my new Mac. I'm not saying this is particularly egregious. I just find it slightly annoying that they keep trying to make me opt into this after I explicitly opted out. Not a big deal though.

scottoreily 6y ago

Wrong, fool