16 ms·

I just want to say that this was a kind, detailed, and thoughtful response -- beneficial to the OP, no doubt, but also probably to others. It was nice to be re

by kfogel 5y ago

I just want to say that this was a kind, detailed, and thoughtful response -- beneficial to the OP, no doubt, but also probably to others. It was nice to be reminded that sometimes the Internet doesn't suck. Thanks for taking the time to write that reply.

jart 5y ago
It's a good comment with the right instinct but for the wrong reasons. The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance. You can't get jobs like the ones he wants if you live beyond your means and constantly land in hot water with money because people who are like that are at risk of turning to evil to make ends meet.
- Shugarl 5y ago
  He just spent a year without any steady source of income, should't his saving run out at one point ?
  - midasuni 5y ago
    You should have 40 years of expenses saved in an emergency fund before you start spending a penny on anything /s
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - sgt101 5y ago
      40 years is quite a risk - 120 is far better. And saving this is easier than you think, if you commit to not eating and living outside. Importantly do what you are told, and remember your inadequacy!
- ehnto 5y ago
  What jobs inquire about your financial history? That seems a little dystopian. Can't get a handle on your finances because you don't have a steady job, better not give them a steady job!
  - CodesInChaos 5y ago
    Financial stability is essential for getting clearance, which I assume would be required for several of the mentioned employers.
  - devoutsalsa 5y ago
    I was massively broke for a long time, and I can speak to my experience in the USA. I was over 200K USD in debt at one point. [1] I was behind on everything, and then declared bankruptcy. The only time I would have needed to worry about it was if I wanted to get a securities license (e.g. become a financial advisor), or if I needed a security clearance (e.g. work on top secret project). The real risk I faced was the threat of making rent & feeding myself. Just 5 years ago I was making 6000 USD per month and with almost 250K in debt, and ~50% of my income going to debt payments. Now I’ll be debt free in a couple months, and I have 12 months of savings in the bank & a rapidly growing retirement account! It’s super nice to feel this way, and it’s only been possible with a lot of hard work and even more luck. [1] I lived way beyond my means, overestimated the value of my expensive education, and had an expensive bicycle accident.
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      > Just 5 years ago I was making 6000 USD per month and with almost 250K in debt, and ~50% I really don’t know what it’s like in other places, but the first few years of a mortgage are like this, but with a larger debt. It’s grim.
      - hashkb 5y ago
        Except at the end you own a house and maybe some land. Usually people with a mortgage they planned for don't describe themselves this way.
      - devoutsalsa 5y ago
        Yeah, that does sound hard. I’ve never had a mortgage myself, but the thought of owing tons of money on an underwater mortgage is not appealing is not appealing.
- hooande 5y ago
  ok, so what does he do? he asked for advice. if you don't have any, no need to say anything that isn't constructive. obviously he won't be able to solve his financial problems in any way without a job. if your assessment is "well he's screwed for the rest of his life" then a) I think you're wrong b) you can keep that to yourself
- atoav 5y ago
  So your advice is "just stop being poor"?
  - jart 5y ago
    It's a question of living within your means. A guy who's fortunate enough to have an engineering job at EA and IBM shouldn't be having personal financial problems, if we consider that many of the immigrants who make his food live comfortably enough to afford sending half their income back to old country. There's a way to live responsibly in any situation and if you can't then you have room for improvement.
    - konart 5y ago
      >It's a question of living within your means. A guy who's fortunate enough to have an engineering job at EA and IBM First of all - you are almost never 'fortunate'. Jobs offers do not fall from the sky usually. Second - you many live well within your means and then have a car accident, or an ill relative, or something else that will make you into piss poor indebted fella real quick.
      - djellybeans 5y ago
        (Additionally, QA jobs for game companies are almost never lucrative.) The core problem is that a median income lifestyle is a relatively unstable state due to unforeseen circumstances like your example. A poor person stays poor (if whatever happens doesn't kill them) which means that poverty is a stable state. A rich person can weather at least a couple disasters, so that makes it a mostly stable state. If you're in the middle, you are in a more unstable position compared to the extremes.
    - freddealmeida 5y ago
      Wow. No empathy here at all. The world can go against you for alot of reasons. I went from millions to pauper to millions to pauper. It happens. It depends on your ethical stance. It depends on other people. It depends on what you fear.
- yoz-y 5y ago
  TF? Aiming for large companies can be actually helpful in this case because they will often shell out money for your relocation and may even help with housing before your first few salaries kick in.
- steerablesafe 5y ago
  Interviewing with a poor financial situation in the background can be indeed suboptimal, but I think for a different reason. You don't have leverage in negotiation and you are most probably desperate, which is hard to hide. Overall this comes trough as lack of confidence and undermines the interview. To turn this into an advice for people interviewing without a safety net: get a safety net. It can be a job that is easy to get, a rent that is easy to pay, just make sure that you can live by that situation indefinitely. You need to leap from there. You need to be able to turn down job offers to be able to negotiate.
  - jart 5y ago
    If you're broke and don't have kids to feed, hit the road and go backpacking or something. No one cares how much money you have. What people care about is that you have an interesting story and are resourceful enough to make the best of any situation. Because one day you're going to get paged at 3am where all the technology is crumbling around you and you're the only one who can save it, and what's going to make you succeed at that moment is your lived experiences until that point saving yourself.
    - brailsafe 5y ago
      This seems a bit specious. I've done things along this line, and it was great, but I had some support infrastructure and a tiny bit of money to actually pay for shit. You're going to need to also build the ability to support yourself for realsies (financially) as well when you return or during, otherwise you're just another idiot who flew to Thailand with $0 in the hopes random ppl will fund your vacation. With some savings, and some ability to work jobs that you'd find anywhere, then ya go make what you can of it, but this isn't that case... yet
      - jart 5y ago
        Not a thought that would have crossed my mind. My mental model was more along the lines of Paul Erdős showing up on famous mathematicians doorsteps asking for a place to live. I don't think anyone accused him of being some loafer trying to hitch a free ride. I mean if you backpack and people don't even want you around for free then how on earth are you ever going to get that faang cash money.
vallas 5y ago
> It's a good comment with the right instinct but for the wrong reasons. The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance. You can't get jobs like the ones he wants if you live beyond your means and constantly land in hot water with money because people who are like that are at risk of turning to evil to make ends meet.
- mcherm 5y ago
  > The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance. As it turns out, being unable to get a job (at least one that pays a reasonable wage) is a common cause of "struggling with personal finance".
  - flybrand 5y ago
    It looks like OP could get jobs, the challenge was not quitting them.
    - vallas 5y ago
      Maybe he should do contract work if he can get jobs
  - pc86 5y ago
    Quit two jobs at 18 because of "low pay" (what 18 year is well paid?). Doesn't say what happened with the Amazon job but $15/hr is about $30k/yr which is about 80-82% of the median individual - not household - income in the US. It's absolutely a "reasonable wage" for a help desk associate. It seems like they've pointed out issues to management which were fixed. That sort of thing gets noticed, in a good way if your employer isn't totally toxic. Less than a year of school, even 100% paid with loans, can easily be paid off on $30k/yr.
    - bawolff 5y ago
      > (what 18 year is well paid?) Plenty in our industry if they have the right set of skills (including soft skills). It might be unreasonable for OP to expect more but lets not pretend that there are no very highly paid young people in the software industry.
buggythebug 5y ago
Well eye opening - not really beneficial - doesn't really give me a 1-2-3 attack plan of what to do.

by kfogel 5y ago

jart 5y ago

It's a good comment with the right instinct but for the wrong reasons. The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance. You can't get jobs like the ones he wants if you live beyond your means and constantly land in hot water with money because people who are like that are at risk of turning to evil to make ends meet.

Shugarl 5y ago
He just spent a year without any steady source of income, should't his saving run out at one point ?
- midasuni 5y ago
  You should have 40 years of expenses saved in an emergency fund before you start spending a penny on anything /s
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - sgt101 5y ago
    40 years is quite a risk - 120 is far better. And saving this is easier than you think, if you commit to not eating and living outside. Importantly do what you are told, and remember your inadequacy!
ehnto 5y ago
What jobs inquire about your financial history? That seems a little dystopian. Can't get a handle on your finances because you don't have a steady job, better not give them a steady job!
- CodesInChaos 5y ago
  Financial stability is essential for getting clearance, which I assume would be required for several of the mentioned employers.
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  I was massively broke for a long time, and I can speak to my experience in the USA. I was over 200K USD in debt at one point. [1] I was behind on everything, and then declared bankruptcy. The only time I would have needed to worry about it was if I wanted to get a securities license (e.g. become a financial advisor), or if I needed a security clearance (e.g. work on top secret project). The real risk I faced was the threat of making rent & feeding myself. Just 5 years ago I was making 6000 USD per month and with almost 250K in debt, and ~50% of my income going to debt payments. Now I’ll be debt free in a couple months, and I have 12 months of savings in the bank & a rapidly growing retirement account! It’s super nice to feel this way, and it’s only been possible with a lot of hard work and even more luck. [1] I lived way beyond my means, overestimated the value of my expensive education, and had an expensive bicycle accident.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    > Just 5 years ago I was making 6000 USD per month and with almost 250K in debt, and ~50% I really don’t know what it’s like in other places, but the first few years of a mortgage are like this, but with a larger debt. It’s grim.
    - hashkb 5y ago
      Except at the end you own a house and maybe some land. Usually people with a mortgage they planned for don't describe themselves this way.
    - devoutsalsa 5y ago
      Yeah, that does sound hard. I’ve never had a mortgage myself, but the thought of owing tons of money on an underwater mortgage is not appealing is not appealing.
hooande 5y ago
ok, so what does he do? he asked for advice. if you don't have any, no need to say anything that isn't constructive. obviously he won't be able to solve his financial problems in any way without a job. if your assessment is "well he's screwed for the rest of his life" then a) I think you're wrong b) you can keep that to yourself
atoav 5y ago
So your advice is "just stop being poor"?
- jart 5y ago
  It's a question of living within your means. A guy who's fortunate enough to have an engineering job at EA and IBM shouldn't be having personal financial problems, if we consider that many of the immigrants who make his food live comfortably enough to afford sending half their income back to old country. There's a way to live responsibly in any situation and if you can't then you have room for improvement.
  - konart 5y ago
    >It's a question of living within your means. A guy who's fortunate enough to have an engineering job at EA and IBM First of all - you are almost never 'fortunate'. Jobs offers do not fall from the sky usually. Second - you many live well within your means and then have a car accident, or an ill relative, or something else that will make you into piss poor indebted fella real quick.
    - djellybeans 5y ago
      (Additionally, QA jobs for game companies are almost never lucrative.) The core problem is that a median income lifestyle is a relatively unstable state due to unforeseen circumstances like your example. A poor person stays poor (if whatever happens doesn't kill them) which means that poverty is a stable state. A rich person can weather at least a couple disasters, so that makes it a mostly stable state. If you're in the middle, you are in a more unstable position compared to the extremes.
  - freddealmeida 5y ago
    Wow. No empathy here at all. The world can go against you for alot of reasons. I went from millions to pauper to millions to pauper. It happens. It depends on your ethical stance. It depends on other people. It depends on what you fear.
yoz-y 5y ago
TF? Aiming for large companies can be actually helpful in this case because they will often shell out money for your relocation and may even help with housing before your first few salaries kick in.
steerablesafe 5y ago
Interviewing with a poor financial situation in the background can be indeed suboptimal, but I think for a different reason. You don't have leverage in negotiation and you are most probably desperate, which is hard to hide. Overall this comes trough as lack of confidence and undermines the interview. To turn this into an advice for people interviewing without a safety net: get a safety net. It can be a job that is easy to get, a rent that is easy to pay, just make sure that you can live by that situation indefinitely. You need to leap from there. You need to be able to turn down job offers to be able to negotiate.
- jart 5y ago
  If you're broke and don't have kids to feed, hit the road and go backpacking or something. No one cares how much money you have. What people care about is that you have an interesting story and are resourceful enough to make the best of any situation. Because one day you're going to get paged at 3am where all the technology is crumbling around you and you're the only one who can save it, and what's going to make you succeed at that moment is your lived experiences until that point saving yourself.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    This seems a bit specious. I've done things along this line, and it was great, but I had some support infrastructure and a tiny bit of money to actually pay for shit. You're going to need to also build the ability to support yourself for realsies (financially) as well when you return or during, otherwise you're just another idiot who flew to Thailand with $0 in the hopes random ppl will fund your vacation. With some savings, and some ability to work jobs that you'd find anywhere, then ya go make what you can of it, but this isn't that case... yet
    - jart 5y ago
      Not a thought that would have crossed my mind. My mental model was more along the lines of Paul Erdős showing up on famous mathematicians doorsteps asking for a place to live. I don't think anyone accused him of being some loafer trying to hitch a free ride. I mean if you backpack and people don't even want you around for free then how on earth are you ever going to get that faang cash money.

vallas 5y ago

> It's a good comment with the right instinct but for the wrong reasons. The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance. You can't get jobs like the ones he wants if you live beyond your means and constantly land in hot water with money because people who are like that are at risk of turning to evil to make ends meet.

mcherm 5y ago
> The biggest red flag is struggling with personal finance. As it turns out, being unable to get a job (at least one that pays a reasonable wage) is a common cause of "struggling with personal finance".
- flybrand 5y ago
  It looks like OP could get jobs, the challenge was not quitting them.
  - vallas 5y ago
    Maybe he should do contract work if he can get jobs
- pc86 5y ago
  Quit two jobs at 18 because of "low pay" (what 18 year is well paid?). Doesn't say what happened with the Amazon job but $15/hr is about $30k/yr which is about 80-82% of the median individual - not household - income in the US. It's absolutely a "reasonable wage" for a help desk associate. It seems like they've pointed out issues to management which were fixed. That sort of thing gets noticed, in a good way if your employer isn't totally toxic. Less than a year of school, even 100% paid with loans, can easily be paid off on $30k/yr.
  - bawolff 5y ago
    > (what 18 year is well paid?) Plenty in our industry if they have the right set of skills (including soft skills). It might be unreasonable for OP to expect more but lets not pretend that there are no very highly paid young people in the software industry.

buggythebug 5y ago

Well eye opening - not really beneficial - doesn't really give me a 1-2-3 attack plan of what to do.