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I'm wondering if 'carbon-neutral' energy production is really environmentally neutral, especially when channeled to cryptocurrency mining. Take wind turbines:

I'm wondering if 'carbon-neutral' energy production is really environmentally neutral, especially when channeled to cryptocurrency mining. Take wind turbines: they've found that harvesting wind actually increases the temperature in an area. Do enough of this, coupled with channeling the energy into heat-producing machines, are we sure this isn't gong to contribute to global warming at scale? Not to mention the harm to avian wildlife, as the turbines kill 5 birds per year each on average. Next you have the externalized costs of building the infrastructure. Producing the wind turbines, the power plant, and the GPUs. Is all of that really getting offset? I'm very optimistic about the potential for cryptocurrency to change the world, but I'd like that to be for the better. And when we have emerging proof-of-stake platforms that have much less of an impact on the planet because they don't by design rely on energetically inefficient ways to secure their networks, I really don't understand how we can argue that proof-of-work cryptocurrencies have any place in the future.

seoaeu 6y ago
> Take wind turbines: they've found that harvesting wind actually increases the temperature in an area. Do enough of this, coupled with channeling the energy into heat-producing machines, are we sure this isn't gong to contribute to global warming at scale? That's some anti-renewable energy FUD I hadn't seen before... Yes, we're sure that won't cause global warming. Wind turbine operation doesn't produce greenhouse gases or meaningful change the Earth's albedo.
- bostonsre 6y ago
  I guess if we theoretically had enough wind turbines, climates could start being impacted due to winds being slowed down but not exactly sure if that would heat the earth more or not. Could an area with lots of turbines have slower wind speeds and have heat dissipate less quickly? It seems plausible, but would think it would even out with a different area getting a little cooler. But yea, don't see how that would cause the earth to warm overall. Also, I assume wind turbines cause some emissions during manufacturing. Not sure going gang busters and making a ton to power bitcoin mining would be great for the planet.
  - pcthrowaway 6y ago
    > Also, I assume wind turbines cause some emissions during manufacturing. Not sure going gang busters and making a ton to power bitcoin mining would be great for the planet. Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If we're building wind turbines to replace energy usage that serves a purpose, that's wonderful! Building new infrastructure for energy production so that we can pass it to a bunch of computers that piss it away is still wasteful. Even if it's less wasteful than burning coal to power those computers. Bitcoin and proof-of-work were revolutionary, but now that we have better cryptocurrency technology, we should be moving away from it.
- pcthrowaway 6y ago
  Since I'm getting downvoted, here's a study on it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511830446X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511... Your misunderstanding seems possibly intentional. I'm very much in favour of renewable energy as an alternative to nonrenewable energy. I'm just not in favour of wasting energy for very little purpose. Build solar/wind energy to replace fossil fuels? Great! Obviously I'm in favour of that. Built an insane amount of infrastructure for producing renewable energy so that we can piss it away? That seems incredibly wasteful! Even if renewable energy is much better, there are still externalities to producing energy.
  - caf 6y ago
    Regardless of whether it increases the local temperature, it's clearly not increasing the overall temperature because that energy in the wind would have ended up as heat, somewhere, eventually anyway.
  - lamontcg 6y ago
    That study says that if you replaced 100% of the power generation of the United States with wind farms concentrated in the middle 1/3rd of the country that it would create localized 0.50C rise in SURFACE temperatures at the wind farms and 0.24C rise in SURFACE temperatures across the whole USA. The authors note very clearly that isn't a global rise in temperature and would be offset by the effects of GHG reduction. Furthermore the wind farm cost is "one time". The effects of GHGs are cumulative. See: https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/false-claim-wind-turbines-generate-more-global-warming-than-fossil-fuels-misrepresents-study-ethan-huff/ https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/false-claim-wind-tur...
    - pcthrowaway 6y ago
      But you're comparing this with nonrenewable energy! I'll state for the third time that I'm in favour of replacing non-renewable energy with renewable energy. What I'm saying is that it's still wasteful, and not cost-free if we're producing insane amounts of energy that don't need to be produced in the first place.
- xmprt 6y ago
  Any infrastructure that we build, renewable or not, has an environmental impact. We have to mine resources and disturb natural habitats. If the renewable energy is used to replace existing fossil fuel demand, then that's a great thing. If instead we're using renewables mainly to fill new crypto mining demand, then that's a bad thing. There might be some positive impact by spurring more innovation in renewable research but I don't think it's possible to make such an analysis in a 2 paragraph Hacker News comment.
agravier 6y ago
Also, the propellers get used quickly and are not recyclable AFAIK.
- agravier 6y ago
  I would like justification for the downvotes please. Thanks.
  - agravier 6y ago
    OK, so here is my source anyway: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turb... I'll refrain from commenting on environmental issues in the future, it's just some sort of shit-flinging contest.
    - bostonsre 6y ago
      I don't see why anyone would down vote a simple fact. Almost all issues have pros and cons, even popular ideas like wind turbines. Seems silly and tribal to down vote like that.
- imtringued 6y ago
  It's infrastructure that lasts 20 years, not a plastic cup containing yogurt that gets thrown away within 3 days.
fy20 6y ago
The impact of a wind farm is going to be very minimal compared to the waste heat generated by fossil fuel power plants. In my country (thanks to the Soviets!) a lot of the waste heat from electricity generation is captured and used to heat homes in nearby cities. One of the largest natural gas plants has a electricity output of 1800MW and a heat output of 5800MW - yet they still needed to build a massive artificial lake to provide additional cooling capacity.

seoaeu 6y ago

> Take wind turbines: they've found that harvesting wind actually increases the temperature in an area. Do enough of this, coupled with channeling the energy into heat-producing machines, are we sure this isn't gong to contribute to global warming at scale? That's some anti-renewable energy FUD I hadn't seen before... Yes, we're sure that won't cause global warming. Wind turbine operation doesn't produce greenhouse gases or meaningful change the Earth's albedo.

bostonsre 6y ago
I guess if we theoretically had enough wind turbines, climates could start being impacted due to winds being slowed down but not exactly sure if that would heat the earth more or not. Could an area with lots of turbines have slower wind speeds and have heat dissipate less quickly? It seems plausible, but would think it would even out with a different area getting a little cooler. But yea, don't see how that would cause the earth to warm overall. Also, I assume wind turbines cause some emissions during manufacturing. Not sure going gang busters and making a ton to power bitcoin mining would be great for the planet.
- pcthrowaway 6y ago
  > Also, I assume wind turbines cause some emissions during manufacturing. Not sure going gang busters and making a ton to power bitcoin mining would be great for the planet. Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If we're building wind turbines to replace energy usage that serves a purpose, that's wonderful! Building new infrastructure for energy production so that we can pass it to a bunch of computers that piss it away is still wasteful. Even if it's less wasteful than burning coal to power those computers. Bitcoin and proof-of-work were revolutionary, but now that we have better cryptocurrency technology, we should be moving away from it.
pcthrowaway 6y ago
Since I'm getting downvoted, here's a study on it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511830446X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511... Your misunderstanding seems possibly intentional. I'm very much in favour of renewable energy as an alternative to nonrenewable energy. I'm just not in favour of wasting energy for very little purpose. Build solar/wind energy to replace fossil fuels? Great! Obviously I'm in favour of that. Built an insane amount of infrastructure for producing renewable energy so that we can piss it away? That seems incredibly wasteful! Even if renewable energy is much better, there are still externalities to producing energy.
- caf 6y ago
  Regardless of whether it increases the local temperature, it's clearly not increasing the overall temperature because that energy in the wind would have ended up as heat, somewhere, eventually anyway.
- lamontcg 6y ago
  That study says that if you replaced 100% of the power generation of the United States with wind farms concentrated in the middle 1/3rd of the country that it would create localized 0.50C rise in SURFACE temperatures at the wind farms and 0.24C rise in SURFACE temperatures across the whole USA. The authors note very clearly that isn't a global rise in temperature and would be offset by the effects of GHG reduction. Furthermore the wind farm cost is "one time". The effects of GHGs are cumulative. See: https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/false-claim-wind-turbines-generate-more-global-warming-than-fossil-fuels-misrepresents-study-ethan-huff/ https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview/false-claim-wind-tur...
  - pcthrowaway 6y ago
    But you're comparing this with nonrenewable energy! I'll state for the third time that I'm in favour of replacing non-renewable energy with renewable energy. What I'm saying is that it's still wasteful, and not cost-free if we're producing insane amounts of energy that don't need to be produced in the first place.
xmprt 6y ago
Any infrastructure that we build, renewable or not, has an environmental impact. We have to mine resources and disturb natural habitats. If the renewable energy is used to replace existing fossil fuel demand, then that's a great thing. If instead we're using renewables mainly to fill new crypto mining demand, then that's a bad thing. There might be some positive impact by spurring more innovation in renewable research but I don't think it's possible to make such an analysis in a 2 paragraph Hacker News comment.

agravier 6y ago

Also, the propellers get used quickly and are not recyclable AFAIK.

agravier 6y ago
I would like justification for the downvotes please. Thanks.
- agravier 6y ago
  OK, so here is my source anyway: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turb... I'll refrain from commenting on environmental issues in the future, it's just some sort of shit-flinging contest.
  - bostonsre 6y ago
    I don't see why anyone would down vote a simple fact. Almost all issues have pros and cons, even popular ideas like wind turbines. Seems silly and tribal to down vote like that.
imtringued 6y ago
It's infrastructure that lasts 20 years, not a plastic cup containing yogurt that gets thrown away within 3 days.

fy20 6y ago

The impact of a wind farm is going to be very minimal compared to the waste heat generated by fossil fuel power plants. In my country (thanks to the Soviets!) a lot of the waste heat from electricity generation is captured and used to heat homes in nearby cities. One of the largest natural gas plants has a electricity output of 1800MW and a heat output of 5800MW - yet they still needed to build a massive artificial lake to provide additional cooling capacity.