4 ms·

Java is poor choice as a language for teaching programming. There are simply too many irrelevant bits that will get in the way of learning.

baby 5y ago
Schools use it because it used to be the best way to get a job. Not anymore.
- askonomm 5y ago
  > Used to be the best way to get a job Java is the most in-demand technology in my home country, Estonia. Java also has around 800 open positions at any given time where I live now (Buenos Aires, Argentina). In fact, pretty much everywhere I've looked, Java is consistently one of the best ways to get a job simply because it has the most jobs available. HN favourites like Go and Rust? I haven't yet found a city in Europe that would have more than 10 job offerings for either of them.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    Go/Rust will get you hired in Silicon Valley working on "cool" teams. I believe a bunch of AWS teams are deep diving into Rust, and not to mention the hundreds of startups working in Go/Rust. However, the sausage is still made Java. Amazon, Google, and Apple are, as far as a I know, primarily Java shops. It's just no one ever starts a blog with "Here's something cool I did in Java".
    - askonomm 5y ago
      Ah yes, I keep forgetting that HN folk are American-centric and often either do not know or forget that the vast majority of developers do not actually live there, or work for FAANG. Outside of USA, a little digging I did via Glassdoor: Buenos Aires, Argentina: - Rust: ~5 jobs - Go: ~3 jobs - Java: ~800 jobs Lisbon, Portugal: - Rust: ~6 jobs - Go: ~30 jobs - Java: ~278 jobs Barcelona, Spain: - Rust: ~1 job - Go: ~50 jobs - Java: ~751 jobs These are just places I've lived at and while I can see Go slowly becoming a thing, Rust is still half a decade away from anything tangible for the real world I would say. So if anyone asks me what should they become an expert in for the next 10 years, I would not hesitate to say Java.
      - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        Yeah, I've been on HN for a decade now (back when Ruby was the new hotness), and I remember looking through the engineering jobs in Ireland and almost entirely Java and C#. Additionally, pretty much all the distributed data processing tools run on the JVM, which is a big deal if that's what you do for a living.
      - twic 5y ago
        Not just American-centric, but "Silicon Valley working on "cool" teams"-centric. Across all jobs in the US, Go and Rust are still a tiny share.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - loriverkutya 5y ago
    Try London.
jariel 5y ago
I think the opposite actually. Python, JS and C/c++ are full of idiosyncrasies. Java allows students to quickly get up and running and focus on the 'CS'. That said, Python might be more practical for anything applied in school.
- oftenwrong 5y ago
  I don't that find Java as a language has fewer idiosyncrasies (perfect term btw). For example, the many modifiers: public, private, "package-private", protected, default, abstract, static, final, volatile, synchronized, etc. How much of that is relevant to a fledgling programmer? If you extend your consideration to build systems and other tooling, it's easy to see that students have a lot to overcome with Java as an intro language. I think purpose-built languages like the HtDP languages or Logo are better choices. Students can get started with zero faff, learn the essential concepts, and move on. Java is a fine choice for higher level courses, with students that are already capable programmers.
  - jariel 5y ago
    I don't think concepts such as public/private/abstract are idiosyncratic because scoping and non-instantiable entities are common in programming. Yes - 'Logo' is a good choice for the most entry-level users, maybe for high schoolers who are taking CS as a 'required' part of the curriculum, but anything beyond that Java is fine. I think Generics, Java9++ 'Modules', jar files and class files might be the idiosyncrasies to worry about. That said, it's weird that in 2021 we don't have a universally 'basic' programming language that is essentially the 'vanilla' of programming. Somewhere inside JS/Python/TS/Java/Dart I think is that 'basic vanilla' imperative language I think.

baby 5y ago

Schools use it because it used to be the best way to get a job. Not anymore.

askonomm 5y ago
> Used to be the best way to get a job Java is the most in-demand technology in my home country, Estonia. Java also has around 800 open positions at any given time where I live now (Buenos Aires, Argentina). In fact, pretty much everywhere I've looked, Java is consistently one of the best ways to get a job simply because it has the most jobs available. HN favourites like Go and Rust? I haven't yet found a city in Europe that would have more than 10 job offerings for either of them.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  Go/Rust will get you hired in Silicon Valley working on "cool" teams. I believe a bunch of AWS teams are deep diving into Rust, and not to mention the hundreds of startups working in Go/Rust. However, the sausage is still made Java. Amazon, Google, and Apple are, as far as a I know, primarily Java shops. It's just no one ever starts a blog with "Here's something cool I did in Java".
  - askonomm 5y ago
    Ah yes, I keep forgetting that HN folk are American-centric and often either do not know or forget that the vast majority of developers do not actually live there, or work for FAANG. Outside of USA, a little digging I did via Glassdoor: Buenos Aires, Argentina: - Rust: ~5 jobs - Go: ~3 jobs - Java: ~800 jobs Lisbon, Portugal: - Rust: ~6 jobs - Go: ~30 jobs - Java: ~278 jobs Barcelona, Spain: - Rust: ~1 job - Go: ~50 jobs - Java: ~751 jobs These are just places I've lived at and while I can see Go slowly becoming a thing, Rust is still half a decade away from anything tangible for the real world I would say. So if anyone asks me what should they become an expert in for the next 10 years, I would not hesitate to say Java.
    - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
      Yeah, I've been on HN for a decade now (back when Ruby was the new hotness), and I remember looking through the engineering jobs in Ireland and almost entirely Java and C#. Additionally, pretty much all the distributed data processing tools run on the JVM, which is a big deal if that's what you do for a living.
    - twic 5y ago
      Not just American-centric, but "Silicon Valley working on "cool" teams"-centric. Across all jobs in the US, Go and Rust are still a tiny share.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- loriverkutya 5y ago
  Try London.

jariel 5y ago

I think the opposite actually. Python, JS and C/c++ are full of idiosyncrasies. Java allows students to quickly get up and running and focus on the 'CS'. That said, Python might be more practical for anything applied in school.

oftenwrong 5y ago
I don't that find Java as a language has fewer idiosyncrasies (perfect term btw). For example, the many modifiers: public, private, "package-private", protected, default, abstract, static, final, volatile, synchronized, etc. How much of that is relevant to a fledgling programmer? If you extend your consideration to build systems and other tooling, it's easy to see that students have a lot to overcome with Java as an intro language. I think purpose-built languages like the HtDP languages or Logo are better choices. Students can get started with zero faff, learn the essential concepts, and move on. Java is a fine choice for higher level courses, with students that are already capable programmers.
- jariel 5y ago
  I don't think concepts such as public/private/abstract are idiosyncratic because scoping and non-instantiable entities are common in programming. Yes - 'Logo' is a good choice for the most entry-level users, maybe for high schoolers who are taking CS as a 'required' part of the curriculum, but anything beyond that Java is fine. I think Generics, Java9++ 'Modules', jar files and class files might be the idiosyncrasies to worry about. That said, it's weird that in 2021 we don't have a universally 'basic' programming language that is essentially the 'vanilla' of programming. Somewhere inside JS/Python/TS/Java/Dart I think is that 'basic vanilla' imperative language I think.