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I don't see how Peloton is going to win this in the long run. Strategically a bad move IMO. May be because I still see Peloton as more closer to a fad than some

I don't see how Peloton is going to win this in the long run. Strategically a bad move IMO. May be because I still see Peloton as more closer to a fad than something sustainable. They did well to make bank at the right time and go public. However its their game to lose. A competitor will do a solid integration with the Apple watch and get promoted in the Apple Store and the site and it will automatically boost their credibility among the same people that buy Pelotons. It will slowly eat away at their base.

chaostheory 6y ago
Imo Peloton has more to worry about with Oculus Quest 2 and the upcoming generation of VR
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  As an owner of both, I can't agree.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    Not Peloton but I have smart bike trainer and familiar with related software (zwift, RGT, tacx etc). My experience: using VR set the way they make them now is extremely uncomfortable on a bike trainer. And yes it will drown headset in sweat and kill it in no time.
    - chaostheory 6y ago
      > And yes it will drown headset in sweat and kill it in no time. Is this from personal experience or just conjecture? Because this is not common problem. Also this is what towels are for. You can also have interchangeable padding to either be more absorbent of sweat or less depending your preferences.
      - kingosticks 6y ago
        Are you saying that sweating prefusably on an indoor cycling trainer is not a common problem? I must be misunderstanding. I'd need to have a couple of these absorbant interchangable sweat pads for an hours workout if I wanted this thing to have any chance of staying in place. And cleaning it afterwards would be a must, even so it sounds absolutely grim after a few uses. Plus they are pretty uncomfortable (my experience). I suppose it might be tolerable if I was just lightly spinning through a magical VR world enjoying the views. But I'd rather be using regular Zwift and getting fit.
        chaostheory 6y ago
        >Are you saying that sweating prefusably on an indoor cycling trainer is not a common problem? I must be misunderstanding. No, I'm saying that lots of sweat will not break a VR system. Personally, I just use a towel on my neck and it's more than good enough VR workouts, but everyone is different
      - madeofpalk 6y ago
        You sweat a lot during exercise. It's literally dripping off my face throughout the exercise. There's no "grabbing a towel to wipe if off" while I'm wearing the headset. The headset will absorb the sweat.
        chaostheory 6y ago
        There's an easy solution for this: 1. Momentarily take off your VR headset. 2. Wipe your sweat using the towel on your neck 3. Put your VR HMD back on and continue working out 4. Repeat when sweat becomes an issue again in 30 minutes > The headset will absorb the sweat. Not if you add a silicone liner on top of the padding of your VR headset. It seems like most of the pundits critical of using VR for working out haven't even tried it themselves
        FpUser 6y ago
        >"4. Repeat when sweat becomes an issue again in 30 minutes" I my case the issue resurfaces in a minute or so. >"Not if you add a silicone liner on top of the padding of your VR headset" Actually in my case liner or not any area of my body that is covered sweats. Anyways your advises sound like I have to bend backwards to make use of that VR. I'll wait till VR does that instead. If not fine with me. I have other things to do. >"It seems like most of the pundits critical of using VR for working out haven't even tried it themselves" You are making unfounded assumptions here.
    - fuzzylightbulb 6y ago
      Agreed. There is no way something like this takes off in this segment if it involves something on a rider's face bulkier than a pair of sunglasses. Most people running Zwift in 2021 are doing it on relatively underpowered platforms like appleTV and ipad, so we're no where close to a situation where VR would even be worth the development effort for these companies.
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    why not?
- djstein 6y ago
  can you provide your thoughts on this?
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    I workout with VR daily 1-2 hours. Most of the time it doesn't even feel like heavy cardio because all I'm doing is playing games dodging bullets and swinging swords. There are even VR games for stationary bikes (https://virzoom.com/ https://virzoom.com/ & https://www.holodia.com https://www.holodia.com). VR is more accessible, more flexible, offers a lot more variety, all for a much lower price than Peloton and other similar offerings.
- ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
  I can't imagine the amount of sweat that comes off my head during a Peloton session being comfortable or safe for the Oculus.
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    That's an over exaggeration. It's an issue, but it's also safe and comfortable enough. Like with riding a stationary, I just use a towel from time to time. There are other accessories that help too. You should try it before forming such a strong opinion.
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      You sound like someone who may be in better shape and / or doesn’t sweat a lot. You definitely wouldn’t want to use an exercise bike after me if you saw what it looked like when I was done, before I wiped it down.
      - clpm4j 6y ago
        I could very easily be mistaken for having jumped into a lake after I get off the exercise bike. Thoroughly drenched.
      - chaostheory 6y ago
        I sweat a lot. All of it in the upper body including my face. My shirt is drenched and hard to take off post VR workout, even with a towel hanging from my neck. A VR workout is still doable with heavy sweating; you just have to try it several times before dismissing it.
    - ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
      Thanks for the feedback. To be clear I was saying I couldn't imagine it being "safe" for the Oculus's internal components, not unsafe for myself. If the Oculus has a level of water resistance to it that means it can take workout sessions from heavy sweaters that is a pleasant surprise!
- reducesuffering 6y ago
  You can already see the start of this with Beat Saber. Imagine a Peloton, but instead of the 2D workout video, you’re in immersive 3D VR cycling trails. Though Peloton still has like 7 years leeway, they won’t have the VR chops to make it happen and will probably be acquired. Some commenters think it won’t be the case due to sweat? Good luck betting $100B market cap being stopped by the lack of innovation in preventing sweat issues.
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    > Imagine a Peloton, but instead of the 2D workout video, you’re in immersive 3D VR cycling trails. https://virzoom.com/ https://virzoom.com/ https://www.holodia.com https://www.holodia.com
    - reducesuffering 6y ago
      They are the AltaVista to future Google
nradov 6y ago
Does Apple Watch integration even matter? There's a big HD screen right there on the bike.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Yes. All of my workout related data is on it. I really don't care what the tool I'm using has as long as it integrates with the Apple Fitness system.
- compiler-guy 6y ago
  The ability it keep track of all your workouts in the same place is really nice.
- rblatz 6y ago
  A key feature of the Apple Watch is its Apple Health app, which tracks more than just your time on a bike. Peloton locking a portion of your data away from you is going to make it a lot more tempting to switch when you find a bike that integrates with all your other data.
  - egwor 6y ago
    Maybe it could sync via your phone? That's how I sync pretty much everything else I use (garmin and polar)
  - nradov 6y ago
    So the issue then is with Apple Health integration, not with the Apple Watch specifically. Apple Health also runs on other iOS devices and has a back end API.
    - dhagz 6y ago
      There are some neat things you can do with the Watch specifically - there's NFC stuff you can do to automatically start a specific workout type when the user taps their watch on a piece of equipment, for instance.
  - 6y ago
madeofpalk 6y ago
Peloton told The Verge Apple told them to remove it > The spokesperson also said: “Peloton is committed to bringing the GymKit integration to all workouts and disciplines within Apple’s terms of service,” seemingly suggesting bootcamp workouts didn’t fall under those terms. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/22385515/peloton-bike-plus-gymkit-apple-watch-bootcamp-support https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/22385515/peloton-bike-plu... I don't understand why the other fitness types ran afoul of the rules... Maybe there wasn't a strict 1-to-1 mapping of activity types which Apple didn't like?
- fudged71 6y ago
  It threatens the Apple ecosystem so this is Apple building a moat
  - jxramos 6y ago
    am I understanding this right, that Peloton is making fitness apps instead of using Apple's own fitness app?
    - DiabloD3 6y ago
      You should also consider that Apple might also be moving into the fad-space that Peloton currently exists in. As in, Apple is extending their moat to eliminate Pelton as a competitor.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - Grimm1 6y ago
        Which would be stupid to do this on their part then, because this would be the most obvious argument to open the app markets because it would be classic, if not textbook, anti-trust circumstances.
        zibzab 6y ago
jonathankoren 6y ago
Peloton is certainly a fad, but Bowflex still exists. The idea that Peloton isn't just an exercise bike with an at home gym subscription, is is highly suspect.
- MisterPea 6y ago
  Peloton also has a more of a cult following. A better comparison is probably cross-fit
paulpan 6y ago
Agreed, it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. The reality is that Peloton doesn't really have an option, since the competitive advantage is health/exercise data. Allowing Apple continued access to user health data via Apple Watch means Peloton devices will be increasingly viewed as commodities - it's just an exercise bike. Also Apple probably will add spin classes to its Fitness+ service soon, which puts them at a direct competition with Peloton's core revenue stream. So you either try to stem the bleeding early, or fade slowly into irrelevance as your products become commoditized. Users may love their Pelotons but I'm surmise that they prefer their Apple devices more. It's like users don't care much for their mobile carriers as long as their iPhones are compatible on those carrier networks.
- zwily 6y ago
  Fitness+ has had spin classes since launch.
pwthornton 6y ago
Peloton should definitely try to work with the Apple Watch as best as possible. We are hearing mixed reports on if Apple or Peloton wanted Peloton to pull back on some of the integration. I recently got a Peloton Bike+, and it is one of the best mixtures of physical and software product I have ever seen. By far the best for anything exercise related. I had been riding on a basic bike with Apple Fitness+, and I enjoyed it a lot, but the Peloton is next level. For cycling classes, it blows everything out of the water. It doesn't just have the standard music and cycling stuff that Soul Cycle and others made popular in person, it has all of the Power Zone classes that are based on improving your specific fitness levels with data and classes tailored to you.
- matsemann 6y ago
  Have you tried actual cycling products when you say it blows everything out of the water? Like Zwift, Trainerroad, Sufferfest, Rouvy etc? For instance Trainerroad is miles ahead when it comes to structured training with progress.
  - pwthornton 6y ago
    I should specify hardware and software combined. Zwift, Trainerroad, etc. are good for people looking to train to become better cyclists. You do largely need to bring your own setup, which can often be complicated (although you can then get a setup that mirrors your outdoor work). I am referring to fitness training, not training to become a better road cyclist, and I suspect most people that use a Peloton or go to Soul Cycle have no intention of training to become better at road cycling. They are doing so to become fitter, and Peloton's training is specifically aimed at improving various areas of fitness. So when I refer to training, I am referring to training to improve specific fitness goals and not training to become a better cyclist. I have no interest in becoming a good cyclist, but I am looking to improve my fitness across a variety of metrics. I also weight train and do other stuff, but I have found the Peloton approach to indoor cycling well suited to helping meet specific fitness goals.
    - kayoone 6y ago
jb775 6y ago
Building your products around an Apple product is like building a product around a parasite. They'll wait until you depend on Apple hardware, or until they trap your users within their own user-base ecosystem, then will casually demand you pay the piper.
- valuearb 6y ago
  It's a "parasite" that pays over $50 Billion a year to people who build around their products.
chriselles 6y ago
I don’t disagree, but.... Peloton has freakishly high Net Promoter Score(NPS) from most high paying customers. The power of belonging, community, and shared effort/mission is incredibly powerful. Especially in a time of such COVID disconnection. Peloton as a business against Apple seems insurmountable. Peloton as a cult/tribe against Apple seems achievable. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Peloton tattoos mirroring Harley-Davidson.

chaostheory 6y ago

Imo Peloton has more to worry about with Oculus Quest 2 and the upcoming generation of VR

madeofpalk 6y ago
As an owner of both, I can't agree.
- FpUser 6y ago
  Not Peloton but I have smart bike trainer and familiar with related software (zwift, RGT, tacx etc). My experience: using VR set the way they make them now is extremely uncomfortable on a bike trainer. And yes it will drown headset in sweat and kill it in no time.
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    > And yes it will drown headset in sweat and kill it in no time. Is this from personal experience or just conjecture? Because this is not common problem. Also this is what towels are for. You can also have interchangeable padding to either be more absorbent of sweat or less depending your preferences.
    - kingosticks 6y ago
      Are you saying that sweating prefusably on an indoor cycling trainer is not a common problem? I must be misunderstanding. I'd need to have a couple of these absorbant interchangable sweat pads for an hours workout if I wanted this thing to have any chance of staying in place. And cleaning it afterwards would be a must, even so it sounds absolutely grim after a few uses. Plus they are pretty uncomfortable (my experience). I suppose it might be tolerable if I was just lightly spinning through a magical VR world enjoying the views. But I'd rather be using regular Zwift and getting fit.
      - chaostheory 6y ago
        >Are you saying that sweating prefusably on an indoor cycling trainer is not a common problem? I must be misunderstanding. No, I'm saying that lots of sweat will not break a VR system. Personally, I just use a towel on my neck and it's more than good enough VR workouts, but everyone is different
    - madeofpalk 6y ago
      You sweat a lot during exercise. It's literally dripping off my face throughout the exercise. There's no "grabbing a towel to wipe if off" while I'm wearing the headset. The headset will absorb the sweat.
      - chaostheory 6y ago
        There's an easy solution for this: 1. Momentarily take off your VR headset. 2. Wipe your sweat using the towel on your neck 3. Put your VR HMD back on and continue working out 4. Repeat when sweat becomes an issue again in 30 minutes > The headset will absorb the sweat. Not if you add a silicone liner on top of the padding of your VR headset. It seems like most of the pundits critical of using VR for working out haven't even tried it themselves
        FpUser 6y ago
        >"4. Repeat when sweat becomes an issue again in 30 minutes" I my case the issue resurfaces in a minute or so. >"Not if you add a silicone liner on top of the padding of your VR headset" Actually in my case liner or not any area of my body that is covered sweats. Anyways your advises sound like I have to bend backwards to make use of that VR. I'll wait till VR does that instead. If not fine with me. I have other things to do. >"It seems like most of the pundits critical of using VR for working out haven't even tried it themselves" You are making unfounded assumptions here.
  - fuzzylightbulb 6y ago
    Agreed. There is no way something like this takes off in this segment if it involves something on a rider's face bulkier than a pair of sunglasses. Most people running Zwift in 2021 are doing it on relatively underpowered platforms like appleTV and ipad, so we're no where close to a situation where VR would even be worth the development effort for these companies.
- chaostheory 6y ago
  why not?
djstein 6y ago
can you provide your thoughts on this?
- chaostheory 6y ago
  I workout with VR daily 1-2 hours. Most of the time it doesn't even feel like heavy cardio because all I'm doing is playing games dodging bullets and swinging swords. There are even VR games for stationary bikes (https://virzoom.com/ https://virzoom.com/ & https://www.holodia.com https://www.holodia.com). VR is more accessible, more flexible, offers a lot more variety, all for a much lower price than Peloton and other similar offerings.
ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
I can't imagine the amount of sweat that comes off my head during a Peloton session being comfortable or safe for the Oculus.
- chaostheory 6y ago
  That's an over exaggeration. It's an issue, but it's also safe and comfortable enough. Like with riding a stationary, I just use a towel from time to time. There are other accessories that help too. You should try it before forming such a strong opinion.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    You sound like someone who may be in better shape and / or doesn’t sweat a lot. You definitely wouldn’t want to use an exercise bike after me if you saw what it looked like when I was done, before I wiped it down.
    - clpm4j 6y ago
      I could very easily be mistaken for having jumped into a lake after I get off the exercise bike. Thoroughly drenched.
    - chaostheory 6y ago
      I sweat a lot. All of it in the upper body including my face. My shirt is drenched and hard to take off post VR workout, even with a towel hanging from my neck. A VR workout is still doable with heavy sweating; you just have to try it several times before dismissing it.
  - ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
    Thanks for the feedback. To be clear I was saying I couldn't imagine it being "safe" for the Oculus's internal components, not unsafe for myself. If the Oculus has a level of water resistance to it that means it can take workout sessions from heavy sweaters that is a pleasant surprise!
reducesuffering 6y ago
You can already see the start of this with Beat Saber. Imagine a Peloton, but instead of the 2D workout video, you’re in immersive 3D VR cycling trails. Though Peloton still has like 7 years leeway, they won’t have the VR chops to make it happen and will probably be acquired. Some commenters think it won’t be the case due to sweat? Good luck betting $100B market cap being stopped by the lack of innovation in preventing sweat issues.
- chaostheory 6y ago
  > Imagine a Peloton, but instead of the 2D workout video, you’re in immersive 3D VR cycling trails. https://virzoom.com/ https://virzoom.com/ https://www.holodia.com https://www.holodia.com
  - reducesuffering 6y ago
    They are the AltaVista to future Google

nradov 6y ago

Does Apple Watch integration even matter? There's a big HD screen right there on the bike.

aaomidi 6y ago
Yes. All of my workout related data is on it. I really don't care what the tool I'm using has as long as it integrates with the Apple Fitness system.
compiler-guy 6y ago
The ability it keep track of all your workouts in the same place is really nice.
rblatz 6y ago
A key feature of the Apple Watch is its Apple Health app, which tracks more than just your time on a bike. Peloton locking a portion of your data away from you is going to make it a lot more tempting to switch when you find a bike that integrates with all your other data.
- egwor 6y ago
  Maybe it could sync via your phone? That's how I sync pretty much everything else I use (garmin and polar)
- nradov 6y ago
  So the issue then is with Apple Health integration, not with the Apple Watch specifically. Apple Health also runs on other iOS devices and has a back end API.
  - dhagz 6y ago
    There are some neat things you can do with the Watch specifically - there's NFC stuff you can do to automatically start a specific workout type when the user taps their watch on a piece of equipment, for instance.
- 6y ago

madeofpalk 6y ago

Peloton told The Verge Apple told them to remove it > The spokesperson also said: “Peloton is committed to bringing the GymKit integration to all workouts and disciplines within Apple’s terms of service,” seemingly suggesting bootcamp workouts didn’t fall under those terms. https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/22385515/peloton-bike-plus-gymkit-apple-watch-bootcamp-support https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/15/22385515/peloton-bike-plu... I don't understand why the other fitness types ran afoul of the rules... Maybe there wasn't a strict 1-to-1 mapping of activity types which Apple didn't like?

fudged71 6y ago
It threatens the Apple ecosystem so this is Apple building a moat
- jxramos 6y ago
  am I understanding this right, that Peloton is making fitness apps instead of using Apple's own fitness app?
  - DiabloD3 6y ago
    You should also consider that Apple might also be moving into the fad-space that Peloton currently exists in. As in, Apple is extending their moat to eliminate Pelton as a competitor.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Grimm1 6y ago
      Which would be stupid to do this on their part then, because this would be the most obvious argument to open the app markets because it would be classic, if not textbook, anti-trust circumstances.
      - zibzab 6y ago

jonathankoren 6y ago

Peloton is certainly a fad, but Bowflex still exists. The idea that Peloton isn't just an exercise bike with an at home gym subscription, is is highly suspect.

MisterPea 6y ago
Peloton also has a more of a cult following. A better comparison is probably cross-fit

paulpan 6y ago

Agreed, it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. The reality is that Peloton doesn't really have an option, since the competitive advantage is health/exercise data. Allowing Apple continued access to user health data via Apple Watch means Peloton devices will be increasingly viewed as commodities - it's just an exercise bike. Also Apple probably will add spin classes to its Fitness+ service soon, which puts them at a direct competition with Peloton's core revenue stream. So you either try to stem the bleeding early, or fade slowly into irrelevance as your products become commoditized. Users may love their Pelotons but I'm surmise that they prefer their Apple devices more. It's like users don't care much for their mobile carriers as long as their iPhones are compatible on those carrier networks.

zwily 6y ago
Fitness+ has had spin classes since launch.

pwthornton 6y ago

Peloton should definitely try to work with the Apple Watch as best as possible. We are hearing mixed reports on if Apple or Peloton wanted Peloton to pull back on some of the integration. I recently got a Peloton Bike+, and it is one of the best mixtures of physical and software product I have ever seen. By far the best for anything exercise related. I had been riding on a basic bike with Apple Fitness+, and I enjoyed it a lot, but the Peloton is next level. For cycling classes, it blows everything out of the water. It doesn't just have the standard music and cycling stuff that Soul Cycle and others made popular in person, it has all of the Power Zone classes that are based on improving your specific fitness levels with data and classes tailored to you.

matsemann 6y ago
Have you tried actual cycling products when you say it blows everything out of the water? Like Zwift, Trainerroad, Sufferfest, Rouvy etc? For instance Trainerroad is miles ahead when it comes to structured training with progress.
- pwthornton 6y ago
  I should specify hardware and software combined. Zwift, Trainerroad, etc. are good for people looking to train to become better cyclists. You do largely need to bring your own setup, which can often be complicated (although you can then get a setup that mirrors your outdoor work). I am referring to fitness training, not training to become a better road cyclist, and I suspect most people that use a Peloton or go to Soul Cycle have no intention of training to become better at road cycling. They are doing so to become fitter, and Peloton's training is specifically aimed at improving various areas of fitness. So when I refer to training, I am referring to training to improve specific fitness goals and not training to become a better cyclist. I have no interest in becoming a good cyclist, but I am looking to improve my fitness across a variety of metrics. I also weight train and do other stuff, but I have found the Peloton approach to indoor cycling well suited to helping meet specific fitness goals.
  - kayoone 6y ago

jb775 6y ago

Building your products around an Apple product is like building a product around a parasite. They'll wait until you depend on Apple hardware, or until they trap your users within their own user-base ecosystem, then will casually demand you pay the piper.

valuearb 6y ago
It's a "parasite" that pays over $50 Billion a year to people who build around their products.

chriselles 6y ago

I don’t disagree, but.... Peloton has freakishly high Net Promoter Score(NPS) from most high paying customers. The power of belonging, community, and shared effort/mission is incredibly powerful. Especially in a time of such COVID disconnection. Peloton as a business against Apple seems insurmountable. Peloton as a cult/tribe against Apple seems achievable. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Peloton tattoos mirroring Harley-Davidson.