4 ms·

Are you seriously implying that before there were marathons, the capability for long-range running didn't exist (or existed much less)? Athleticism as a general

Are you seriously implying that before there were marathons, the capability for long-range running didn't exist (or existed much less)? Athleticism as a general activity has increased because it's a leisure activity (as in, something you do when there's not anything really important to do), so it makes sense that there's a dramatic rise in it when we're unquestionably in an abundant time.

pjc50 6y ago
No? I'm saying that (as is documented by the olympic records!) the peak ability has increased. Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progress... It probably was the case that the average person in a world where you had to walk everywhere was fitter than the average person in a world where you don't. Similarly people have gotten taller: https://ourworldindata.org/human-height https://ourworldindata.org/human-height
- r-zip 6y ago
  I think the commenter's point was that genetically, we were just as capable (if not moreso) before modern times. Of course people's lives and outcomes have improved; that's not in question.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > genetically, we were just as capable (if not moreso) before modern times They're claiming that, but on what evidence? Comparative measurement is very difficult, but at least with skeletons you can measure height. Which has increased.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Height is largely a function of diet. We very much eat better, but historically you find average heights very quite a bit over time with people getting taller and shorter based on the food supply. Even today it varies quite a bit, but almost directly maps to country wealth and immigration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_countr...
- Retric 6y ago
  That’s environment not genetics. History gave modern athletes their baseline, and Science is what’s breaking records. English longbows for example had much higher draw weights than modern bows so the strongest archer of all time presumably lived hundreds of years ago. The critical difference is effectively nobody is training for that kind of draw strength.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Amezarak 6y ago
  Someone else mentioned the varation in height over time and among populations, so I won't go into that. But: > No? I'm saying that (as is documented by the olympic records!) the peak ability has increased. Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progress... This doesn't tell us anything. Assume a normal distribution of running speed among people who seriously practice running. Assume precision timing instruments were invented in the last couple hundred years. What we would expect to see, even if physiological conditions haven't changed at all, is a steady decline in record mile times as you sample more and more people on the right side of the distribution, until eventually better times require more and more extreme, rare outliers and average times between records begins increasing. That does not mean that the fastest mile ever was run in 1999, or that athleticism is increasing, or anything. (It might be. There are certainly more people training for specifically competitive athletic reasons than ever before.) But it would not be surprising to learn that the fastest mile ever was run 2000 years ago. Consider this footprint analysis of a random Australian aboriginine. [1] They calculate him as running at 23mph, which is comparable to Usain Bolt's record setting average speed of 23mph in a 100m sprint. Did we get lucky finding the footprints of one of the fastest Australians in history? Maybe. Or maybe he just wasn't that unusual in an environment where people ran a lot. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/20-000-year-old-human-footprints-found-in-australia https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/20-000-ye...
  - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
    Bolt's 23 mph includes acceleration from a standing start. His top speed during a race is more like 28 mph.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I'd be willing to bet that about 95% of that is environment. Like it or not we're basically the same people, just have more resources (in most countries) than back then. I would venture their better bone density was simply unless you were wealthy you -had- to work and usually that involved physical labor, only a few artisans, the rich, academics, etc got out of it.

pjc50 6y ago

No? I'm saying that (as is documented by the olympic records!) the peak ability has increased. Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progress... It probably was the case that the average person in a world where you had to walk everywhere was fitter than the average person in a world where you don't. Similarly people have gotten taller: https://ourworldindata.org/human-height https://ourworldindata.org/human-height

r-zip 6y ago
I think the commenter's point was that genetically, we were just as capable (if not moreso) before modern times. Of course people's lives and outcomes have improved; that's not in question.
- pjc50 6y ago
  > genetically, we were just as capable (if not moreso) before modern times They're claiming that, but on what evidence? Comparative measurement is very difficult, but at least with skeletons you can measure height. Which has increased.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Height is largely a function of diet. We very much eat better, but historically you find average heights very quite a bit over time with people getting taller and shorter based on the food supply. Even today it varies quite a bit, but almost directly maps to country wealth and immigration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_countr...
Retric 6y ago
That’s environment not genetics. History gave modern athletes their baseline, and Science is what’s breaking records. English longbows for example had much higher draw weights than modern bows so the strongest archer of all time presumably lived hundreds of years ago. The critical difference is effectively nobody is training for that kind of draw strength.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Amezarak 6y ago
Someone else mentioned the varation in height over time and among populations, so I won't go into that. But: > No? I'm saying that (as is documented by the olympic records!) the peak ability has increased. Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progress... This doesn't tell us anything. Assume a normal distribution of running speed among people who seriously practice running. Assume precision timing instruments were invented in the last couple hundred years. What we would expect to see, even if physiological conditions haven't changed at all, is a steady decline in record mile times as you sample more and more people on the right side of the distribution, until eventually better times require more and more extreme, rare outliers and average times between records begins increasing. That does not mean that the fastest mile ever was run in 1999, or that athleticism is increasing, or anything. (It might be. There are certainly more people training for specifically competitive athletic reasons than ever before.) But it would not be surprising to learn that the fastest mile ever was run 2000 years ago. Consider this footprint analysis of a random Australian aboriginine. [1] They calculate him as running at 23mph, which is comparable to Usain Bolt's record setting average speed of 23mph in a 100m sprint. Did we get lucky finding the footprints of one of the fastest Australians in history? Maybe. Or maybe he just wasn't that unusual in an environment where people ran a lot. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/20-000-year-old-human-footprints-found-in-australia https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/20-000-ye...
- TheCoelacanth 6y ago
  Bolt's 23 mph includes acceleration from a standing start. His top speed during a race is more like 28 mph.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I'd be willing to bet that about 95% of that is environment. Like it or not we're basically the same people, just have more resources (in most countries) than back then. I would venture their better bone density was simply unless you were wealthy you -had- to work and usually that involved physical labor, only a few artisans, the rich, academics, etc got out of it.