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Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I

Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spend time. This system would need to accommodate peoples schedules, shouldn't have to miss work for a parking ticket, etc. Much harder to administer than mailing fines.

dec0dedab0de 6y ago
I do, it would also be more fair than fines because it wouldn't be worse on the poor. I also think we should have corporal punishment, not because I believe in it per se, but because I think it is more humane than prison and would satisfy societies need for punishing the guilty.
- nemacol 6y ago
  I can see an argument that poor folks have less free time - if someone worked a couple part time jobs, has kids or other family that rely on them, several hours picking up litter is a pretty big deal. Vs my 9-5 M-F job, no dependants, etc. several hours picking up litter is a bummer or inconvenience. I think that corporal punishment proposal is batshit insane.
cletus 6y ago
The criminal justice system already does this extensively. Often people are sentenced to community service. So I guess your question is really should this be extended to more low-level offenses like minor traffic violations? It's an interesting question. In Switzerland, for example, speeding above a certain level ceases to be a fixed fine and is instead a percentage of your income. I'm a fan of that. Fixed fines tend to discriminate against the poor disproportionately. I can imagine there are many people who would be better off and would prefer 2-4 hours of community service over a $100 fine. So that should certainly be an option instead of paying the fine. Yeah I think the idea probably does have merit.
- nemacol 6y ago
  I like the % of income idea.
  - mc32 6y ago
    What do you do with crimes committed by people who have little in earnings (students, unemployed, etc.) or folks who earn “$1” in income but obviously are otherwise wealthy?
    - whatshisface 6y ago
      It would be based on the income of all of the money attached to you, including interest/dividends/appreciation within trusts with you as the grantee. Since wealth makes more money in virtually every way it can be stored, and since not investing it results in the "inflation tax," inflation + income tax = wealth tax.
    - nemacol 6y ago
      Interesting question. I imagine someone has already thought of this from a tax point of view. Maybe some % of their net worth divided by their age (working age?) - say if they have 100 million dollars and are 60. 60-18 = 42. We would fine X% of 2,380,952.38? The idea being an attempt to come up with what their yearly salary could have been based on current value. I am sure there are some excellent flaws with that approach as well. Fun to ponder.
      - dec0dedab0de 6y ago
        I hope the government doesn't keep track of everyones net worth, it's bad enough they know everyone's income.
    - distances 6y ago
      In Finland where all larger fines are day-fines the minimum day-fine is 6€. Calculation is based in your total income (including capital income). Most rich people would be affected due to capital income.
amelius 6y ago
I want to see FAANG CEOs do public service, instead of being fined pennies.
MisterBastahrd 6y ago
Common? Sure. Well educated, comfortable people who rob others of their livelihood? They deserve state penns, just like the poor folks who got three strikes for walking off with hedge clippers.
hindsightbias 6y ago
Have a friend who got a driving related offense in a Bay Area county. He asked to go to jail for two or three weeks as he had a good job and income and could make it work with his boss. It was denied and he had to do weekend community service for 8 months. As a traveling consultant, this was a real wrench into his job and for his employer. He'd have to travel back every Thursday because he could not afford a Friday flight cancellation and missing service. Now, this court and county insists they structure it this way so to have the least impact on people. But he would arrive and watch all his crime peers arrive by taxi, foot or bike (bus service to that area on Saturday morning was a no-op). The vast majority of his peers were not people who could afford $20 each-way taxi or uber trips and worked jobs on weekends. They lost their jobs because their licenses were suspended. He suspected many of them gave up trying to comply and parked 1/2 mile away, driving their cars with with suspended licenses. Community service is basically a racket and not necessarily a better work/life deal than prison.

dec0dedab0de 6y ago

I do, it would also be more fair than fines because it wouldn't be worse on the poor. I also think we should have corporal punishment, not because I believe in it per se, but because I think it is more humane than prison and would satisfy societies need for punishing the guilty.

nemacol 6y ago
I can see an argument that poor folks have less free time - if someone worked a couple part time jobs, has kids or other family that rely on them, several hours picking up litter is a pretty big deal. Vs my 9-5 M-F job, no dependants, etc. several hours picking up litter is a bummer or inconvenience. I think that corporal punishment proposal is batshit insane.

cletus 6y ago

The criminal justice system already does this extensively. Often people are sentenced to community service. So I guess your question is really should this be extended to more low-level offenses like minor traffic violations? It's an interesting question. In Switzerland, for example, speeding above a certain level ceases to be a fixed fine and is instead a percentage of your income. I'm a fan of that. Fixed fines tend to discriminate against the poor disproportionately. I can imagine there are many people who would be better off and would prefer 2-4 hours of community service over a $100 fine. So that should certainly be an option instead of paying the fine. Yeah I think the idea probably does have merit.

nemacol 6y ago
I like the % of income idea.
- mc32 6y ago
  What do you do with crimes committed by people who have little in earnings (students, unemployed, etc.) or folks who earn “$1” in income but obviously are otherwise wealthy?
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    It would be based on the income of all of the money attached to you, including interest/dividends/appreciation within trusts with you as the grantee. Since wealth makes more money in virtually every way it can be stored, and since not investing it results in the "inflation tax," inflation + income tax = wealth tax.
  - nemacol 6y ago
    Interesting question. I imagine someone has already thought of this from a tax point of view. Maybe some % of their net worth divided by their age (working age?) - say if they have 100 million dollars and are 60. 60-18 = 42. We would fine X% of 2,380,952.38? The idea being an attempt to come up with what their yearly salary could have been based on current value. I am sure there are some excellent flaws with that approach as well. Fun to ponder.
    - dec0dedab0de 6y ago
      I hope the government doesn't keep track of everyones net worth, it's bad enough they know everyone's income.
  - distances 6y ago
    In Finland where all larger fines are day-fines the minimum day-fine is 6€. Calculation is based in your total income (including capital income). Most rich people would be affected due to capital income.

amelius 6y ago

I want to see FAANG CEOs do public service, instead of being fined pennies.

MisterBastahrd 6y ago

Common? Sure. Well educated, comfortable people who rob others of their livelihood? They deserve state penns, just like the poor folks who got three strikes for walking off with hedge clippers.

hindsightbias 6y ago

Have a friend who got a driving related offense in a Bay Area county. He asked to go to jail for two or three weeks as he had a good job and income and could make it work with his boss. It was denied and he had to do weekend community service for 8 months. As a traveling consultant, this was a real wrench into his job and for his employer. He'd have to travel back every Thursday because he could not afford a Friday flight cancellation and missing service. Now, this court and county insists they structure it this way so to have the least impact on people. But he would arrive and watch all his crime peers arrive by taxi, foot or bike (bus service to that area on Saturday morning was a no-op). The vast majority of his peers were not people who could afford $20 each-way taxi or uber trips and worked jobs on weekends. They lost their jobs because their licenses were suspended. He suspected many of them gave up trying to comply and parked 1/2 mile away, driving their cars with with suspended licenses. Community service is basically a racket and not necessarily a better work/life deal than prison.