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I'm not sure that's really the point, but I'd say that there is a heavy force in education against science, math, and all other forms of critical inquiry. One

by donw 18y ago

I'm not sure that's really the point, but I'd say that there is a heavy force in education against science, math, and all other forms of critical inquiry. One of the biggest reasons people would leave the Mathematics department at my university was because they couldn't deal with being told that their proofs were crap, and that they needed to get the quality of their work up if they wanted to succeed. It's not that the work was "too hard". It's that students couldn't get coast on extra credit points and pure-opinion essays, like they had gotten used to in high school and junior college. Finishing a complete trip through Math, Engineering, or any of the sciences required actual effort, as well as the ability to handle criticism, a skill that many students lacked after over twelve years of education. I also had a chance to see the other side of the coin, because my second degree was in a foreign language. My Japanese degree consisted of nearly four years of classes which required almost no effort whatsoever. Loads of extra credit and students handing in work months after the deadline were the rule, not the exception. Many of my fellow students in the Japanese program were majoring in Asian Studies or Asian History, and complained incessantly about the difficulty of their classes. Even though their major fields were focused heavily on Japan, many of them couldn't even read at the equivalent of a fourth-grade level, after studying the language for four years. I asked many of them why they chose their majors, versus engineering or mathematics, and the most common responses cited how harsh their previous Math and Science professors had been, by not allowing extra credit, late homework, and so on. While this does not constitute any sort of proof or rigorous study, it illustrates the point that our schools are far too lenient on students, and lenient schools do not produce graduates who can survive the crucible-like atmosphere of even an undergraduate science program.

donw 18y ago
I think it's worth noting that I don't think the people in my Japanese classes were inherently stupid, lazy, or anything else of the sort. Merely that they've been spent years being indoctrinated to avoid criticism, and that the end result of this has been them shifting to the easiest possible path through college, rather than trying something because it was hard.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  One irony I find in this is that I studied Japanese (along with my Logic and Computation major) because I thought it was hard. Although, I wish I had some of the lenient teachers you describe :). I didn't have much trouble with memorizing words, grammar rules, etc. But speaking and listening real time I found to be quite a challenge. And I can empathize with people who had trouble reading Japanese at a 4th grade level :). Wasn't there an article on here a while back about the difficulties of studying Chinese compared to other European languages? I related to much of that.
  - donw 18y ago
    Dual-majoring in two separate fields is a challenge, no matter what you decide to do, so as a fellow person who seems to kick his own ass too much, I salute you. grin Japanese is certainly harder for an English speaker than German, French, or Spanish, but even so, it should only take a dedicated student about two years to attain fluency in the language. I was not a dedicated student, so I've got another year before I think I'll pass the JLPT 1, bringing the total to about six years, which is (somewhat) respectable, given that this is just a hobby. But the majority of my classmates were majoring in the subject, with many planning on going on to graduate school. Even so, most were utterly incompetent, thanks to an education system that has taught them to avoid effort. I think that, if some of these kids had had their asses kicked, and gotten some real challenges, that they would have done some incredible work. I actually feel sorry for my teachers; I could see that they wanted to push the students harder, but that they knew that it just wouldn't work, and that they had no power, because it was such a small department at the University. So, if they ticked off too many people, they'd be out of a job. The head teacher, who is a really sweet woman, has had a couple of nervous breakdowns over the past year, partially due to the stress of dealing with her classes. She's actually one of the motivations for my study tools project, because it should help her out quite a bit.
davidw 18y ago
I think there are many factors involved, but the author seems to want to use 'US doing bad in science' as a hammer to beat on one particular point, which may well be a valid one, but is doubtless only one of many problems.

by donw 18y ago

donw 18y ago

I think it's worth noting that I don't think the people in my Japanese classes were inherently stupid, lazy, or anything else of the sort. Merely that they've been spent years being indoctrinated to avoid criticism, and that the end result of this has been them shifting to the easiest possible path through college, rather than trying something because it was hard.

jimbokun 18y ago
One irony I find in this is that I studied Japanese (along with my Logic and Computation major) because I thought it was hard. Although, I wish I had some of the lenient teachers you describe :). I didn't have much trouble with memorizing words, grammar rules, etc. But speaking and listening real time I found to be quite a challenge. And I can empathize with people who had trouble reading Japanese at a 4th grade level :). Wasn't there an article on here a while back about the difficulties of studying Chinese compared to other European languages? I related to much of that.
- donw 18y ago
  Dual-majoring in two separate fields is a challenge, no matter what you decide to do, so as a fellow person who seems to kick his own ass too much, I salute you. grin Japanese is certainly harder for an English speaker than German, French, or Spanish, but even so, it should only take a dedicated student about two years to attain fluency in the language. I was not a dedicated student, so I've got another year before I think I'll pass the JLPT 1, bringing the total to about six years, which is (somewhat) respectable, given that this is just a hobby. But the majority of my classmates were majoring in the subject, with many planning on going on to graduate school. Even so, most were utterly incompetent, thanks to an education system that has taught them to avoid effort. I think that, if some of these kids had had their asses kicked, and gotten some real challenges, that they would have done some incredible work. I actually feel sorry for my teachers; I could see that they wanted to push the students harder, but that they knew that it just wouldn't work, and that they had no power, because it was such a small department at the University. So, if they ticked off too many people, they'd be out of a job. The head teacher, who is a really sweet woman, has had a couple of nervous breakdowns over the past year, partially due to the stress of dealing with her classes. She's actually one of the motivations for my study tools project, because it should help her out quite a bit.

davidw 18y ago

I think there are many factors involved, but the author seems to want to use 'US doing bad in science' as a hammer to beat on one particular point, which may well be a valid one, but is doubtless only one of many problems.