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Quoted from comments and decided to analyze: "A family sedan for $80,000. That will work." At an average of 15K miles/year, 30mpg, and $3/gal of gas, that's $1

by checker 15y ago

Quoted from comments and decided to analyze: "A family sedan for $80,000. That will work." At an average of 15K miles/year, 30mpg, and $3/gal of gas, that's $1500 in gasoline a year. Over 5 years, that's a savings of $7500 ($10000 for $4/gal). We're not quite at that point where it offsets completely from a pure 'gas vs electric' POV (I'm not sure if the car has a Mercedes-comparable interior or a Toyota-comparable interior). I don't think this means it won't work, but I was interested in the gas savings over time. I would buy one if I could afford an $80000 car.

MikeCapone 15y ago
If you really wanted an EV now, you could get a Nissan LEAF for a lot less than a Tesla Roadster. But if you want a couple generations, you should get a pretty decent price and a much bigger range (not to mention that by then fast charging stations should be more common).
pitdesi 15y ago
The Tesla model S is supposed to be similar in dimension to the last 7 series BMW... which retails for about $80k. I believe fit and finish is to be up to that par as well. http://autos.yahoo.com/bmw/7-series/2012/ http://autos.yahoo.com/bmw/7-series/2012/ It's not close on a gas savings level, but you don't buy a Tesla for the gas savings... You buy it because it is a different type of car and to make a statement.
- vaksel 15y ago
  frankly I don't see why they need to make it so big. Weight is one of the biggest problems for fuel efficiency, it takes a ton more juice to move a 4,000lb car vs a a 3,000lb car.
  - checker 15y ago
    I find it interesting that they intend to make a wagon/estate version with rear-facing seats (article says 7 passengers, so my best guess is that it has to be a wagon in that form). They must really want to make the 'family' statement, because no other demographic regularly sits 7 people.
    - lutorm 15y ago
      Everyone driving around in an SUV seem to feel the need for seating 7 people, even if a microscopic fraction of them actually do...
- bh42222 15y ago
  I love the Tesla guys, but I doubt they have the pricing power of BMW. In that price range we're talking conspicuous consumption, and a beamer is definitely conspicuous, but a Tesla? Maybe if you're a gay engineer dude, this Tesla will be a great way to score other gay geek dudes - wait or maybe it's for lesbian geeks... not sure, my point is I doubt this will make people think it can get them laid as much an equally priced BMW will. This is why I think it is overpriced.
- rdl 15y ago
  I'm hoping to put in a deposit for a Model S Signature as a bay area vehicle (for personal and/or company use). The 300 mile range is perfect for SFBA, and it's big enough for 4-5 people comfortably, or datacenter equipment, and has more novelty value than a lambo among geeks. I wouldn't take an exotic (Tesla, Fiskar Karma, F or L, etc.) on long road trips in the US, especially with a non-standard drivetrain, due to the lack of service options. Within the bay area, especially if you have 240 or 480v charging at home/office, it's perfect. I know a Roadster user who has his mainly because he hates gas stations.
btilly 15y ago
Your analysis left out the cost of electricity that has to be used instead of gas. Even so in 5 years you save a maximum of 10% of the cost of the car. This only works if you're put a personal value on not using fossil fuels which far exceeds the cost of gasoline. In return you get a very fast sedan that can't be used for any long road trips. It would be fine for commutes and around town, but even something like a trip from Los Angeles to San Francisco would be a major fail.
- mixmastamyk 15y ago
  LA to SF is a long drive and not comfortable to do in one day. Yes it can be done if you take i-5 and drive like a maniac for ~6-7 hours. However, I'd much rather take the scenic route via 101 and stop over in Paso Robles and get the car charged up while at a nice B&B, wine tasting, etc. ;)
  - ChuckMcM 15y ago
    Must be a perception thing. One way isn't "long" in the sense that its only 300 miles. Its 'long' to drive SF to Las Vegas. Basically any drive over about 480 miles of freeway starts getting long. That being said, the 'long trip' scenario is somewhat of red herring. If you regularly travel several hundred miles a day then an all electric car is probably unlikely to meet your vehicle requirements. If its an occasional (once a year) kind of thing then creative solutions might arise to address it. Were the Tesla guys willing to put a high power plug in the back I could imagine a 'trailer' which held a generator and a gas tank and provided power all the way there.
    - yosh 15y ago
      There's actually 5 charging stations that Tesla installed on the 101 between SF and LA. If we got serious about electric cars, higher charging station density would help with long trips. And I agree, SF<->LA is not a long drive.
    - btilly 15y ago
      Until those "creative solutions" have materialized and hit the market, we have to work within the constraints that we have to live with. As someone with a family, my requirements for a family car need to cover the possibility of extended road trips. Sure, I know that in theory I could just rent a gas car for that, but I know in practice that it won't happen. So "able to handle long road trips" is solidly in my personal list of firm requirements for a family vehicle. Sure, I don't need to do it every day. But it is something I need that vehicle to do.
cube13 15y ago
Let's assume that it's a high-end luxury sedan, not a low-end family sedan. Unless gas goes up to $100/gallon, there's no way you'll save money by buying the Tesla over a affordable mid-size like a Honda Accord or Ford Fusion. So let's compare that to a Mercedes E-class. According to US News(http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Mercedes-Benz_E-Class/ http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Mercedes-Be...), the average price out the door is about $48,000 for the model with the fewest options. Let's round that up to $50,000, because we want alloy wheels or some other additional feature. The mileage of the car is 24 highway, 17 city, so let's average that to about 20(a bit more city driving than highway). So that's $15,000 in gas over the 5 years(30/20=1.5). So the total cost of the car, not counting other replacements, is around $65,000. That's still $15,000 less than the $80,000 on the Tesla, and you're not going to spend $15,000 on car washes and other parts(brakes, oil, etc.) in that time. It should also be noted that if you need to buy replacement batteries in that 5 year period, the cost increases to $100,000. EDIT: I didn't include the cost of electricity, or the electrical work needed to get the extra 220 volt circuit out to your garage.
- wooster 15y ago
  The high end Mercedes luxury sedan is the S-class, for which the low end price paid is about $90,000.
- checker 15y ago
  I agree. The personal carbon guilt price will need to heavily weigh in their favor, as btilly said next to you.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Most people don't buy luxury vehicles for their economics.
- nradov 15y ago
  Edmunds estimates the total cost of ownership for a Mercedes-Benz E-class sedan at $77K for five years. http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/2011/tco.html?style=101350134 http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/2011/tco.html?s...

by checker 15y ago

MikeCapone 15y ago

If you really wanted an EV now, you could get a Nissan LEAF for a lot less than a Tesla Roadster. But if you want a couple generations, you should get a pretty decent price and a much bigger range (not to mention that by then fast charging stations should be more common).

pitdesi 15y ago

The Tesla model S is supposed to be similar in dimension to the last 7 series BMW... which retails for about $80k. I believe fit and finish is to be up to that par as well. http://autos.yahoo.com/bmw/7-series/2012/ http://autos.yahoo.com/bmw/7-series/2012/ It's not close on a gas savings level, but you don't buy a Tesla for the gas savings... You buy it because it is a different type of car and to make a statement.

vaksel 15y ago
frankly I don't see why they need to make it so big. Weight is one of the biggest problems for fuel efficiency, it takes a ton more juice to move a 4,000lb car vs a a 3,000lb car.
- checker 15y ago
  I find it interesting that they intend to make a wagon/estate version with rear-facing seats (article says 7 passengers, so my best guess is that it has to be a wagon in that form). They must really want to make the 'family' statement, because no other demographic regularly sits 7 people.
  - lutorm 15y ago
    Everyone driving around in an SUV seem to feel the need for seating 7 people, even if a microscopic fraction of them actually do...
bh42222 15y ago
I love the Tesla guys, but I doubt they have the pricing power of BMW. In that price range we're talking conspicuous consumption, and a beamer is definitely conspicuous, but a Tesla? Maybe if you're a gay engineer dude, this Tesla will be a great way to score other gay geek dudes - wait or maybe it's for lesbian geeks... not sure, my point is I doubt this will make people think it can get them laid as much an equally priced BMW will. This is why I think it is overpriced.
rdl 15y ago
I'm hoping to put in a deposit for a Model S Signature as a bay area vehicle (for personal and/or company use). The 300 mile range is perfect for SFBA, and it's big enough for 4-5 people comfortably, or datacenter equipment, and has more novelty value than a lambo among geeks. I wouldn't take an exotic (Tesla, Fiskar Karma, F or L, etc.) on long road trips in the US, especially with a non-standard drivetrain, due to the lack of service options. Within the bay area, especially if you have 240 or 480v charging at home/office, it's perfect. I know a Roadster user who has his mainly because he hates gas stations.

btilly 15y ago

Your analysis left out the cost of electricity that has to be used instead of gas. Even so in 5 years you save a maximum of 10% of the cost of the car. This only works if you're put a personal value on not using fossil fuels which far exceeds the cost of gasoline. In return you get a very fast sedan that can't be used for any long road trips. It would be fine for commutes and around town, but even something like a trip from Los Angeles to San Francisco would be a major fail.

mixmastamyk 15y ago
LA to SF is a long drive and not comfortable to do in one day. Yes it can be done if you take i-5 and drive like a maniac for ~6-7 hours. However, I'd much rather take the scenic route via 101 and stop over in Paso Robles and get the car charged up while at a nice B&B, wine tasting, etc. ;)
- ChuckMcM 15y ago
  Must be a perception thing. One way isn't "long" in the sense that its only 300 miles. Its 'long' to drive SF to Las Vegas. Basically any drive over about 480 miles of freeway starts getting long. That being said, the 'long trip' scenario is somewhat of red herring. If you regularly travel several hundred miles a day then an all electric car is probably unlikely to meet your vehicle requirements. If its an occasional (once a year) kind of thing then creative solutions might arise to address it. Were the Tesla guys willing to put a high power plug in the back I could imagine a 'trailer' which held a generator and a gas tank and provided power all the way there.
  - yosh 15y ago
    There's actually 5 charging stations that Tesla installed on the 101 between SF and LA. If we got serious about electric cars, higher charging station density would help with long trips. And I agree, SF<->LA is not a long drive.
  - btilly 15y ago
    Until those "creative solutions" have materialized and hit the market, we have to work within the constraints that we have to live with. As someone with a family, my requirements for a family car need to cover the possibility of extended road trips. Sure, I know that in theory I could just rent a gas car for that, but I know in practice that it won't happen. So "able to handle long road trips" is solidly in my personal list of firm requirements for a family vehicle. Sure, I don't need to do it every day. But it is something I need that vehicle to do.

cube13 15y ago

Let's assume that it's a high-end luxury sedan, not a low-end family sedan. Unless gas goes up to $100/gallon, there's no way you'll save money by buying the Tesla over a affordable mid-size like a Honda Accord or Ford Fusion. So let's compare that to a Mercedes E-class. According to US News(http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Mercedes-Benz_E-Class/ http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Mercedes-Be...), the average price out the door is about $48,000 for the model with the fewest options. Let's round that up to $50,000, because we want alloy wheels or some other additional feature. The mileage of the car is 24 highway, 17 city, so let's average that to about 20(a bit more city driving than highway). So that's $15,000 in gas over the 5 years(30/20=1.5). So the total cost of the car, not counting other replacements, is around $65,000. That's still $15,000 less than the $80,000 on the Tesla, and you're not going to spend $15,000 on car washes and other parts(brakes, oil, etc.) in that time. It should also be noted that if you need to buy replacement batteries in that 5 year period, the cost increases to $100,000. EDIT: I didn't include the cost of electricity, or the electrical work needed to get the extra 220 volt circuit out to your garage.

wooster 15y ago
The high end Mercedes luxury sedan is the S-class, for which the low end price paid is about $90,000.
checker 15y ago
I agree. The personal carbon guilt price will need to heavily weigh in their favor, as btilly said next to you.
burgerbrain 15y ago
Most people don't buy luxury vehicles for their economics.
nradov 15y ago
Edmunds estimates the total cost of ownership for a Mercedes-Benz E-class sedan at $77K for five years. http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/2011/tco.html?style=101350134 http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/2011/tco.html?s...